How to coach this behavior out?
07-14-2015, 10:07 PM
#61
I would respectfully suggest you step back as the instructor and encourage your friend/student to benefit from exposure to a diverse slice of group assigned (not cherry picked) instructors.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
07-15-2015, 12:58 AM
#62
I would respectfully suggest you step back as the instructor and encourage your friend/student to benefit from exposure to a diverse slice of group assigned (not cherry picked) instructors.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
I agree. As an instructor, if I can't get through to my student I'm not afraid to ask for help from other instructors. I consider situations like this a learning experience for both; myself and my student. The ultimate goal is for both of us to learn and to improve.
07-15-2015, 10:16 AM
#63
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I would respectfully suggest you step back as the instructor and encourage your friend/student to benefit from exposure to a diverse slice of group assigned (not cherry picked) instructors.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
07-15-2015, 11:26 AM
#64
I would respectfully suggest you step back as the instructor and encourage your friend/student to benefit from exposure to a diverse slice of group assigned (not cherry picked) instructors.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
As an early-intermediate DE level and after 2 decades' experience as a faculty member have taught me that students respond to words/phrases in differing ways.
Also: although sometimes it's easier to hear critical feedback from a close friend, as an experienced instructor you already know that it can work the other way as well. Sometimes a dear friend's valuable advice misses the mark.
Finally, I find true friends to be a precious commodity, far rarer than good instructors. I would personally avoid potentially jeopardizing a friendship over DE. As someone suggested, you can be an immense resource coaching from the sidelines. Let someone else be the tough critic.
I get valuable feedback from my instructor friends when they ride with me and I believe I'm capable of giving good feedback to them. However, these people are close friends and we all rose to the instructor ranks together. We know each other well, each of us already knows how to drive on a race track, and we respect each other enough to be able to give/receive pointed criticism. That experience does not translate to students who are friends still working their way up through the ranks and learning their fundamentals.
Case in point. A familiar acquaintance of mine discovered I had made instructor and wanted me to ride with him. We go out and he is one of the worst students I've ever had - bad enough by the third lap I'm thinking "how in the hell did you get into this run group?". I'd like to think I was still objective in the car and during the debrief, but I do know I was trying to keep it not awkward at the same time - this is clearly not optimal. Resolved myself that I'm not getting in that situation again. It is much easier to be objective with "strangers". I also think there may be a temptation for a friend to try and impress you, that isn't good either.
One of these days my wife may try track driving. I think she would be good at it as her natural instincts are very good - she doesn't know what the word "apex" means, but she knows what it is when she has ridden shotgun with me and "instructed". Her completely untrained instruction is astoundingly good. She is my best friend, however, there is no way in hell that I would ever try to instruct her if she ever tries it. I'm even loath to pick an instructor for her, as the instructor corps of our region is very good.
Your comment about diverse instructors is also spot on. I've learned something from each instructor who has ridden with me - even the handful that didn't work so well. Everyone has their own style of driving, much like a fingerprint. My style of driving is made out of the bits here and there that I've picked up from these guys plus the way I like driving the car. Going out with the same instructor too many times is a setup for diminishing returns - the variety of different instructors pays dividends.
-Mike
07-15-2015, 09:09 PM
#65
I beg the forgiveness of the forum knowing that this has been answered and I'm asking only because I don't have time to research the answer after spending an hour reading this thread, but I find this thread to be incredibly informative except for the fact that I am unsure of the "nannies" that are being discussed. So:
1) What are the common "nannies" or "nanny" you are mentioning and what do they do?
2) In my 2011 911 C4, what "nannies" are on my car, and can I turn them off?
3) Does a "4" fundamentally alter the feel of the car when it is at it's limits?
Lastly, as an instructor in aviation with thousands of hours of instruction time I would simply comment that honesty is the best policy always. Once you have said your peace you can evaluate the reaction and decide whether or not to continue, but the truth is honesty is the simplest and shortest venue to a happy ending or a simple resolution.
Years ago I had a student who was an extremely wealthy individual. He had been told by several instructors that "he didn't get it and probably never would". The implication being that he might actually kill himself and his family. He fired instructor after instructor until he came up against a retired military instructor that he "respected". Then and only then did he finally realize his lack of skill. The point is no amount of training or face saving comments would improve that student. Honesty was the best and only answer.
1) What are the common "nannies" or "nanny" you are mentioning and what do they do?
2) In my 2011 911 C4, what "nannies" are on my car, and can I turn them off?
3) Does a "4" fundamentally alter the feel of the car when it is at it's limits?
Lastly, as an instructor in aviation with thousands of hours of instruction time I would simply comment that honesty is the best policy always. Once you have said your peace you can evaluate the reaction and decide whether or not to continue, but the truth is honesty is the simplest and shortest venue to a happy ending or a simple resolution.
Years ago I had a student who was an extremely wealthy individual. He had been told by several instructors that "he didn't get it and probably never would". The implication being that he might actually kill himself and his family. He fired instructor after instructor until he came up against a retired military instructor that he "respected". Then and only then did he finally realize his lack of skill. The point is no amount of training or face saving comments would improve that student. Honesty was the best and only answer.
07-15-2015, 09:40 PM
#66
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I beg the forgiveness of the forum knowing that this has been answered and I'm asking only because I don't have time to research the answer after spending an hour reading this thread, but I find this thread to be incredibly informative except for the fact that I am unsure of the "nannies" that are being discussed. So:
1) What are the common "nannies" or "nanny" you are mentioning and what do they do?
2) In my 2011 911 C4, what "nannies" are on my car, and can I turn them off?
3) Does a "4" fundamentally alter the feel of the car when it is at it's limits?
Lastly, as an instructor in aviation with thousands of hours of instruction time I would simply comment that honesty is the best policy always. Once you have said your peace you can evaluate the reaction and decide whether or not to continue, but the truth is honesty is the simplest and shortest venue to a happy ending or a simple resolution.
Years ago I had a student who was an extremely wealthy individual. He had been told by several instructors that "he didn't get it and probably never would". The implication being that he might actually kill himself and his family. He fired instructor after instructor until he came up against a retired military instructor that he "respected". Then and only then did he finally realize his lack of skill. The point is no amount of training or face saving comments would improve that student. Honesty was the best and only answer.
1) What are the common "nannies" or "nanny" you are mentioning and what do they do?
2) In my 2011 911 C4, what "nannies" are on my car, and can I turn them off?
3) Does a "4" fundamentally alter the feel of the car when it is at it's limits?
Lastly, as an instructor in aviation with thousands of hours of instruction time I would simply comment that honesty is the best policy always. Once you have said your peace you can evaluate the reaction and decide whether or not to continue, but the truth is honesty is the simplest and shortest venue to a happy ending or a simple resolution.
Years ago I had a student who was an extremely wealthy individual. He had been told by several instructors that "he didn't get it and probably never would". The implication being that he might actually kill himself and his family. He fired instructor after instructor until he came up against a retired military instructor that he "respected". Then and only then did he finally realize his lack of skill. The point is no amount of training or face saving comments would improve that student. Honesty was the best and only answer.
07-16-2015, 10:46 AM
#67
I beg the forgiveness of the forum knowing that this has been answered and I'm asking only because I don't have time to research the answer after spending an hour reading this thread, but I find this thread to be incredibly informative except for the fact that I am unsure of the "nannies" that are being discussed. So:
1) What are the common "nannies" or "nanny" you are mentioning and what do they do?
2) In my 2011 911 C4, what "nannies" are on my car, and can I turn them off?
1) What are the common "nannies" or "nanny" you are mentioning and what do they do?
2) In my 2011 911 C4, what "nannies" are on my car, and can I turn them off?
https://clubregistration.net/club_ad...ttons50210.pdf
Steve
07-16-2015, 01:44 PM
#68
The commentary above is all excellent. I'd emphasize that if one is really serious about track driving, IMO it is inevitable that you will "need" a track car or three, and may also want to step up to racing. None of my primary track and racing cars have any driver aids, including ABS, and to me that is part of the joy and challenge. And if part of your personal goals are to go fast, you are going to develop at least track rash from offs, cone strikes, debris, the dreaded black from tire boogers hitting your car, etc, and it's way less heartburn if the car is simpler and cheaper.
So I'd strongly encourage the acquisition of a dedicated track car and I personally consider the Miata the greatest street-to-track care ever made, when considering cost (acquisition and consumables), reliability and performance (and there are some turbo examples out there that will run with most street cars). A cheap, older SM can be had for probably $6-8K and some of the Porschephiles spend more than that for a set of wheels and tires.
Finally, if a driver is having trouble feeling the car move around underneath him, might I suggest some autocrossing without driver aids functioning?
IMO you just have to f*ck up a few times to "get" it and even then if you really hang the car out all the time you still f*ck up once in a while. Hence, the dedicated track car to make these events less traumatic.
So I'd strongly encourage the acquisition of a dedicated track car and I personally consider the Miata the greatest street-to-track care ever made, when considering cost (acquisition and consumables), reliability and performance (and there are some turbo examples out there that will run with most street cars). A cheap, older SM can be had for probably $6-8K and some of the Porschephiles spend more than that for a set of wheels and tires.
Finally, if a driver is having trouble feeling the car move around underneath him, might I suggest some autocrossing without driver aids functioning?
IMO you just have to f*ck up a few times to "get" it and even then if you really hang the car out all the time you still f*ck up once in a while. Hence, the dedicated track car to make these events less traumatic.
07-16-2015, 04:57 PM
#69
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Wow this thread blew up while I was out yesterday. 
I appreciate the responses and I see some side discussions going.
My main goal was "in general" vs. my specific friend/student... so I'll try to steer it back there now.
Autocross with the nannies off is a good one and I certainly plan to push that on him. I'll also suggest he try out a different instructor at his next DE to get their take - some variety is probably a good thing.
I'd love to hear some other ideas, mainly in the name of becoming a better instructor myself. A lot of have said, "Give him a different instructor" - which is fine. What would you expect or hope the other instructor would do or say in this instance to teach this? What if YOU found yourself as the "other" instructor? Those of you that have had a student who relied on PSM too much - what did you do to curb it? (A few have resorted to "treating PSM light as a spin" and "threatening to end their day early" which is certainly an option and in some cases definitely warranted... but what if you wanted to keep them out on track?)
Or is it really truly just a case of "someone else telling the guy the same thing will be the ticket?" (Which is also entirely possible...)
I appreciate the responses and I see some side discussions going.
My main goal was "in general" vs. my specific friend/student... so I'll try to steer it back there now.
Autocross with the nannies off is a good one and I certainly plan to push that on him. I'll also suggest he try out a different instructor at his next DE to get their take - some variety is probably a good thing.
I'd love to hear some other ideas, mainly in the name of becoming a better instructor myself. A lot of have said, "Give him a different instructor" - which is fine. What would you expect or hope the other instructor would do or say in this instance to teach this? What if YOU found yourself as the "other" instructor? Those of you that have had a student who relied on PSM too much - what did you do to curb it? (A few have resorted to "treating PSM light as a spin" and "threatening to end their day early" which is certainly an option and in some cases definitely warranted... but what if you wanted to keep them out on track?)
Or is it really truly just a case of "someone else telling the guy the same thing will be the ticket?" (Which is also entirely possible...)
07-16-2015, 05:42 PM
#70
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Wow this thread blew up while I was out yesterday.
I appreciate the responses and I see some side discussions going.
My main goal was "in general" vs. my specific friend/student... so I'll try to steer it back there now.
Autocross with the nannies off is a good one and I certainly plan to push that on him. I'll also suggest he try out a different instructor at his next DE to get their take - some variety is probably a good thing.
I'd love to hear some other ideas, mainly in the name of becoming a better instructor myself. A lot of have said, "Give him a different instructor" - which is fine. What would you expect or hope the other instructor would do or say in this instance to teach this? What if YOU found yourself as the "other" instructor? Those of you that have had a student who relied on PSM too much - what did you do to curb it? (A few have resorted to "treating PSM light as a spin" and "threatening to end their day early" which is certainly an option and in some cases definitely warranted... but what if you wanted to keep them out on track?)
Or is it really truly just a case of "someone else telling the guy the same thing will be the ticket?" (Which is also entirely possible...)
I appreciate the responses and I see some side discussions going.
My main goal was "in general" vs. my specific friend/student... so I'll try to steer it back there now.
Autocross with the nannies off is a good one and I certainly plan to push that on him. I'll also suggest he try out a different instructor at his next DE to get their take - some variety is probably a good thing.
I'd love to hear some other ideas, mainly in the name of becoming a better instructor myself. A lot of have said, "Give him a different instructor" - which is fine. What would you expect or hope the other instructor would do or say in this instance to teach this? What if YOU found yourself as the "other" instructor? Those of you that have had a student who relied on PSM too much - what did you do to curb it? (A few have resorted to "treating PSM light as a spin" and "threatening to end their day early" which is certainly an option and in some cases definitely warranted... but what if you wanted to keep them out on track?)
Or is it really truly just a case of "someone else telling the guy the same thing will be the ticket?" (Which is also entirely possible...)
Here's what I do:
Very specificly talking the driver through each step ('turn here, add throttle, brake here')
Fine tune it based on how well they are doing it ('turn in gently here', 'go, go, go')
If they're not getting it (like too much gas too early) I alter what I am telling them ('gentle turn in here')
Take them for a ride with me driving there car and be perfect, talking myself around the track as though I am the student.
The idea is to build up muscle memory through repetition. Abusing the nannies would call for the alteration described above.
If that doesn't work, I'll note the nanny kicking in ('did you see/hear/feel that? That was the stability management kicking in' and hopefully have time to say 'lets avoid that in the future') but retrospective advice is tough to pull off effectively
Every once in a while a student doesn't/won't get it. I hate to say this, but its often the older drivers that just don't have the learning skills and started too late (I say this as a 62-year old driver that is glad he started 20 years ago). Plenty of older drivers learn well, but the failure rate seems higher post say 60.
A different voice and style can make a big difference. After listening to me for 2 days anyone would want a change if its not working. Including me.
Hope this helps - a driver that just barrels into a turn without any clue is trouble. One that does this and doesn't learn from it is even bigger trouble.
And never ever let the driver out solo until he or she has proven over time they can drive within themselves.
Hope this helps - great post, by the way.
07-16-2015, 08:51 PM
#71
Here is a write-up of some of the various "Sport" buttons and nannies for Porsches that may have some of the info you're looking for. This is from the event page for a Florida Citrus PCA region driver's education event:
https://clubregistration.net/club_ad...ttons50210.pdf
Steve
https://clubregistration.net/club_ad...ttons50210.pdf
Steve
I'm beginning to understand why guys want to drive older cars or simpler cars. Reading up on the PSM makes me wonder why bother tracking a newer car. I really want to learn how to control a car on the edge, but if PSM is constantly hiding "the edge" how can I learn it?
07-16-2015, 08:54 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Bingo!
07-16-2015, 10:31 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
There is no #2.
