User 52121

Ok question for the instructors here.

Cliffs notes: How do you coach a student, who is driving a newer car and lived under the PSM safety net, how to identify and correct for slides, near spins, (in other words, excessive yaw) LONG before it should become a true concern?


Long version:
I've seen this now a few times (and especially with a good friend of mine who I've been instructing since his first DE) where the car starts to slide and there's just NO reaction. It was really noticeable in the wet - handful of steering input, car starts to rotate, and there's no reaction - no counter steering, no lifting or adjusting of the throttle, etc. Just keeps on going, trying to plow through the turn. I can feel it, and it seems sometimes, the student can't - even when, in the moment, I call it out... "Careful, feel that rotation? Back off on the wheel....maintenance throttle... gentle...", etc. Stability management just kicks in to save the day. Luckily (at least in the wet) we were always going slow enough that it didn't really matter.

I always point out, both in the moment, and afterwards in the paddock, that they just avoided a big spin there - PSM saved their butt. They smile and nod but overall to me it's often clear they just don't seem to understand - either they didn't pick up on it, or think I'm just a safety ninny. PSM is just so seamless.

I let my student (and good friend) solo this past weekend. He's done a fantastic job the last 2 events - consistent, smooth, under control, and running reasonably quickly (and come a LONG way from where he started - I'm truly proud of him, if that's not strange to say...) When he keeps his wits about him, he does great. Every now and then when I was in the right seat, he'd try to "push" a little and I'd have to wag my finger, and he'd bring it back.

So when he solo'd for his last session... I was watching from the sideline. Consistent laps - I timed 4 in a row on the stopwatch that were all within ~0.6s of each other. He clearly started getting confident (OVER confident) towards the end because I noticed a little bit of a slide through the turn I was next to - then my other good friend (who was running the safety truck) came over to tell me that it came over the radio he had a BIG slide through another turn ("BOTH rear tires were on the rumbles, and NEITHER of the fronts were...")

This is all with PSM still on - so that would've been ugly. The car has let him get up to speed VERY quickly, and it almost seems like it's let him skip over some of the lessons other folks learn earlier on.

I *want* to tell him to just turn PSM off (though I won't - I don't want to be responsible if he does wad it up... PLUS it's a PDK car so you really can't turn it off). He does autocross so I'll have him shut it off there, but AX is so much more frantic, you don't get so many of the slow-motion slides like you do on a track.

The best thing that *I* can come up with: I'm trying to talk him into building a simulator. iRacing + Oculus Rift and let him learn how to push, slide, and recover spins. But what are some alternatives? Tell him to go to a parking lot on a rainy day? Take the car out in a snow storm? How do some of you coach the idea of counter steering, catching slides, etc?

Spyerx

I'm not a coach... but this is my approach since starting DE:

you have to be self aware that you are driving the car against the nannies, and what that means. I think many drivers just are not
so turn them off, but you have to ratchet it back, you will be slower, but you have to build it up to get faster
and Ax is a great place to start this, and/or a track with lots of safe runoff (we have that hear, called desert dust... but very, very little to hit). chuckwalla is great for this, very wide, long sweeping corners great for exploring the limits of the car
The issue with staying on the nannies is that eventually they will not save you, especially in the wet, and you will not know what to do

User 52121

I think this is the challenge - ratcheting it back when the nannies are off.

rlm328

Most of the cars with the nannies, have a nanny light that comes on in the dashboard when it is functioning. Ask him to try and drive without it coming on. If he has a camera system set it up so it can see the dash and the track so that he knows when it comes on and where on the track it activates.

You may also inform him he will not have to replace his rear brakes as often if the little yellow light does not come on.

DTMiller

I have a friend who thinks that when his instructor tells him the computer saved him that it is a sign that he is "driving to the limit" and doesn't understand that his instructor is telling him a negative thing. So, are you sure your friend really understands that when it kicks on it isn't a good thing? Just a thought. If your friend thinks like mine, he might hear the words but honestly believe it is a good thing and therefore isn't actively trying to avoid it but rather trying to replicate it.

Hella-Buggin'

They may be too overwhelmed to be able to notice it while driving. Is it possible for you to drive their car with them as a passenger and purposefully get PSM to kick in so they can identify the feeling?

TXE36

Assuming you can feel the PSM go off, set as a goal that you want him to drive an entire session without setting the PSM off. Argue that if he is in control of the car, he ought to be able to drive the car to the limit PSM allows. It needs to be taught that PSM going off indiscriminately is a bad thing and indicates driver error at the beginner levels. If he argues that driving this way would be too slow, argue back this isn't about speed - you want to see him demonstrate the judgement. Funny thing is, if done correctly, he will be faster .

Another method that works on a wet day (assuming the student listens) is go out with PSM disabled and pick a few safe corners to risk spinning or going off. Dial him way back on the other corners and only turn him loose on the safe corners when away from other traffic.

I would be very careful about simulators as they don't have the seat feel of the real thing. If going sim, pick something realistic as opposed to a game. Iracing would be good, but there are others.

In the end, sometimes it's a matter of OSB (Other Sports Beckon).

-Mike

needmoregarage

If there is a car control clinic or skid pad class available it's a great place to learn the limits and how to correct.

I instruct car control clinics and have spent a TON of hours demonstrating 3 types of skids (understeer, oversteer and all wheel). After I demo then I right seat and ask them to induce understeer and then correct, and then oversteer and correct. Sometimes this is in a retired police cruiser (track training car) and sometimes people opt to use their personal vehicle so it's everything from FWD, RWD, AWD, SUV etc.

In my experience with over 100 students in the past few years - some people simply lack the "butt-o-meter" to understand when they've lost control of the car. You can teach it to a certain degree - but it requires a certain awareness and "feel" and unfortunately there are people who are "blind" to this aspect of driving. Maybe they could learn it if given enough practice to understand the difference of sensation when understeering - and how when you lift off the throttle and open up the wheel the car can respond beautifully.

IMO after reading your post - you need to sit down with your friend and have a heart to heart about what's at risk (as proven by his big slide). He may or may not get it - but you'll have done your due diligence. He needs a lot more hours on track and this is one of the problems with sophisticated cars - they cover a multitude of sins and allow people to drive much faster than their skill level. We all know at some point it'll come back to bite them (it's not IF - it's WHEN).

I'm not a fan of turning off nannies for liability reasons and also because if they're going to drive with nannies they need to learn the feel of when nannies are kicking in. You can't turn off ABS but you can sure develop a feel for threshold braking and when ABS kicks in, and when you can barely breathe out of ABS. I understand how turning off nannies and reigning in driving could be helpful but I'm not telling any student to turn off anything (just a personal approach and no disrespect to anyone who opts to do it differently).

Of course ABS is an "in your face" kind of sensation and hard to miss. The nannies to which you refer are much more subtle and much more difficult for someone to sense.

Good luck

Veloce Raptor

Strongly suggest this person save his fancy newer car and get an older car with fewer electronics for the track. Like an E36 M3 or first generation Boxster.

Or suggest he get another volunteer instructor. Some men you just can't reach...

needmoregarage

^ agree with TXE36 and Veloce Raptor

Also forgot to say empty parking lots in winter are a great place to practice car control as long as no one else is around and there is nothing to hit (lamp post, curbing, guard rail, etc). Even a wet deserted parking lot would be a good option although I find snow makes it a lot easier to slide.

But a proper skid pad in the context of a car control clinic is a great way to learn. Our local PCA chapter puts on a clinic usually at least once a year (used to be in concert with the DE but is now a separate event). Our track (PittRace) hosts the clinics I instruct, and I know Mid-Ohio does something similar. There may be options in various parts of the country - it's worth exploring because it's by far the safest option to learn the limits of the car and how to correct.

With all that said - it also takes a LOT of practice to be able to develop the muscle memory to properly correct when a car begins to "lose it". I warn students in the clinic that just because they did well after 10 min on a skid pad doesn't mean they'll automatically be able to control a skid "in the wild" because unless these skills are practiced on a regular basis - most folks won't retain it especially under the stress of an emergency with potential panic setting in. In that case all bets are off (and the same panic can happen in track driving when mistakes are made - we all have seen evidence of this)

jdistefa

1) Spec Miata
2) Vision exercises
3) Skid pad
4) Track with lots of runoff
5) Switch to bowling if doesn't get it

Gary R.

^^^^
Yep!

After his first solo session debacle I would have had the CI talk to him and put another Instructor in the car as he is CLEARLY not ready to solo yet. Your best bet is to stay out of his car and act as a sideline "coach" as he is your friend...

zedcat

from a student perspective- early on I had a really good instructor that could perceive PSM when I didn't. If PSM saved me, he would say ok, we'll count that as a spin, so let's go through hot pit and discuss. Got my attention and helped me focus on sensing what the car was doing. Also think I got a lot out of car control schools. Local PCA does a really good one. Another more expensive option is PSDS at Barber (skidpad, etc.). And now the PCNA HQ in Atlanta has some good exercises. The kick-plate especially is helpful and a lot of fun.

golfnutintib

THIS -- ^^^

Modern BMW's and Porsches will flash a light on the dash center pod when the TC/stability management is intervening... this is safer for agressive novice drivers than turning nannies off...

924RACR

^I really like this, I think all instructors should take this approach.