How to coach this behavior out?
07-13-2015, 02:53 PM
#16
Race Car
I always thought go karts were one of the best ways to fix/break bad habits.
with no suspension, and a live axle, mistakes are immediately evident.
any indoor kart tracks around your area?
usually they have a evening were 'racers' show up, vs the mixed bag population...
-I do like the idea of treating a psm light as a spin, and a drive through...
with no suspension, and a live axle, mistakes are immediately evident.
any indoor kart tracks around your area?
usually they have a evening were 'racers' show up, vs the mixed bag population...
-I do like the idea of treating a psm light as a spin, and a drive through...
07-13-2015, 02:58 PM
#17
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I like to think that my several years in a 944 helped me for this reason.
Why even have an instructor if you have all the nannies going? The video of that guy in the Corvette is perhaps the most telling example. If you can floor the accelerator while turning you aren't learning anything.
07-13-2015, 03:19 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
from a student perspective- early on I had a really good instructor that could perceive PSM when I didn't. If PSM saved me, he would say ok, we'll count that as a spin, so let's go through hot pit and discuss. Got my attention and helped me focus on sensing what the car was doing. Also think I got a lot out of car control schools. Local PCA does a really good one. Another more expensive option is PSDS at Barber (skidpad, etc.). And now the PCNA HQ in Atlanta has some good exercises. The kick-plate especially is helpful and a lot of fun.
And just so we're clear - while I used my friend as an example (he's the one student I've had over and over and have been able to establish a clear pattern), he's not the only student I've had who does this. I had a second student this past weekend (who had already been solo'd and just wanted someone to ride along with him for one session) who had the same issues... along with some students previously as well. It wasn't until I really started thinking about my friend's progress and where he seems to be hung up that I realized I've had a lot of students who have this same issue.
While suggesting they get rid of their car for a Spec Miata or something (which IMO really is a valid suggestion) sometimes it's just not realistic. Tell them that and they'll just get another instructor, or just say FU and go out and do it on their own. Particular to my friend, I want him to learn. He's already WAY ahead of most of the "check rides" I've had to give to previously solo'd drivers (which is scary IMO - a lot of "instructors" should NOT be instructing based on what I've seen from some solo'd drivers!) So just trying to figure out how to help him get this (admittedly very difficult to master) skill down.
I'll have to talk to him about potentially going back to using his other car for a few events (the car he used before buying the Cayman). It handles very differently (older Audi) but might be enough to get a few spins under his belt.
Outside of my friend - what about other students, whom I've only met that day? Do you seriously just tell a student (who otherwise shows competence on the race track) that they should find a different sport, without offering to come up with alternate ways to get them to learn?
Tons of places rent Miatas and it is good way to learn.
I like to think that my several years in a 944 helped me for this reason.
Why even have an instructor if you have all the nannies going? The video of that guy in the Corvette is perhaps the most telling example. If you can floor the accelerator while turning you aren't learning anything.
I like to think that my several years in a 944 helped me for this reason.
Why even have an instructor if you have all the nannies going? The video of that guy in the Corvette is perhaps the most telling example. If you can floor the accelerator while turning you aren't learning anything.
While I do have a good amount of track time under my belt - I do give a lot of credit to my accident and spin avoidance (or spin recovery) skills through iRacing. You lose the "butt meter" and the inner sensation of yaw - but you DO get it visually. It's better than nothing, and I kinda figure, by the time it's VISUALLY out of shape, if you can still bring it back - then when you're in the real car and the butt senses rotation, you're that much further ahead, as I can always FEEL it way before I SEE it. (As evidenced by me having a slide or two on my own, that in my head was HUUUGE, then I go back to review the footage and you can't even tell the car moved...)
I do appreciate the responses so far, guys. Thanks a bunch. I enjoy instructing and sharing this sport, and love seeing students progress. I just want to add what I learn here to my toolkit, so to speak.
07-13-2015, 03:28 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I get the purpose but I don't want the liability. It *is* possible to spin and wreck even with PSM on!Assuming you can feel the PSM go off, set as a goal that you want him to drive an entire session without setting the PSM off. Argue that if he is in control of the car, he ought to be able to drive the car to the limit PSM allows. It needs to be taught that PSM going off indiscriminately is a bad thing and indicates driver error at the beginner levels. If he argues that driving this way would be too slow, argue back this isn't about speed - you want to see him demonstrate the judgement. Funny thing is, if done correctly, he will be faster 
.
Another method that works on a wet day (assuming the student listens) is go out with PSM disabled and pick a few safe corners to risk spinning or going off. Dial him way back on the other corners and only turn him loose on the safe corners when away from other traffic.
I would be very careful about simulators as they don't have the seat feel of the real thing. If going sim, pick something realistic as opposed to a game. Iracing would be good, but there are others.
In the end, sometimes it's a matter of OSB (Other Sports Beckon).
-Mike
.Another method that works on a wet day (assuming the student listens) is go out with PSM disabled and pick a few safe corners to risk spinning or going off. Dial him way back on the other corners and only turn him loose on the safe corners when away from other traffic.
I would be very careful about simulators as they don't have the seat feel of the real thing. If going sim, pick something realistic as opposed to a game. Iracing would be good, but there are others.
In the end, sometimes it's a matter of OSB (Other Sports Beckon).
-Mike
In my experience though, the PSM is pretty damned seamless. Nothing like the stability control in my older Audis, VWs, and my old Z06 (where, when it came on, you knew it - because the car essentially shuts down for a split second). Unless you are experienced enough to know that the car isn't doing EXACTLY what you ASKED it to do, you generally can't tell it's doing anything save for the blinking light on the dash. (Really, it's pretty damned impressive if you ask me... my wife's 2013 GTI, the stability management and TC is almost transparent!)
If there is a car control clinic or skid pad class available it's a great place to learn the limits and how to correct.
I instruct car control clinics and have spent a TON of hours demonstrating 3 types of skids (understeer, oversteer and all wheel). After I demo then I right seat and ask them to induce understeer and then correct, and then oversteer and correct. Sometimes this is in a retired police cruiser (track training car) and sometimes people opt to use their personal vehicle so it's everything from FWD, RWD, AWD, SUV etc.
In my experience with over 100 students in the past few years - some people simply lack the "butt-o-meter" to understand when they've lost control of the car. You can teach it to a certain degree - but it requires a certain awareness and "feel" and unfortunately there are people who are "blind" to this aspect of driving. Maybe they could learn it if given enough practice to understand the difference of sensation when understeering - and how when you lift off the throttle and open up the wheel the car can respond beautifully.
IMO after reading your post - you need to sit down with your friend and have a heart to heart about what's at risk (as proven by his big slide). He may or may not get it - but you'll have done your due diligence. He needs a lot more hours on track and this is one of the problems with sophisticated cars - they cover a multitude of sins and allow people to drive much faster than their skill level. We all know at some point it'll come back to bite them (it's not IF - it's WHEN).
I'm not a fan of turning off nannies for liability reasons and also because if they're going to drive with nannies they need to learn the feel of when nannies are kicking in. You can't turn off ABS but you can sure develop a feel for threshold braking and when ABS kicks in, and when you can barely breathe out of ABS. I understand how turning off nannies and reigning in driving could be helpful but I'm not telling any student to turn off anything (just a personal approach and no disrespect to anyone who opts to do it differently).
Of course ABS is an "in your face" kind of sensation and hard to miss. The nannies to which you refer are much more subtle and much more difficult for someone to sense.
Good luck
I instruct car control clinics and have spent a TON of hours demonstrating 3 types of skids (understeer, oversteer and all wheel). After I demo then I right seat and ask them to induce understeer and then correct, and then oversteer and correct. Sometimes this is in a retired police cruiser (track training car) and sometimes people opt to use their personal vehicle so it's everything from FWD, RWD, AWD, SUV etc.
In my experience with over 100 students in the past few years - some people simply lack the "butt-o-meter" to understand when they've lost control of the car. You can teach it to a certain degree - but it requires a certain awareness and "feel" and unfortunately there are people who are "blind" to this aspect of driving. Maybe they could learn it if given enough practice to understand the difference of sensation when understeering - and how when you lift off the throttle and open up the wheel the car can respond beautifully.
IMO after reading your post - you need to sit down with your friend and have a heart to heart about what's at risk (as proven by his big slide). He may or may not get it - but you'll have done your due diligence. He needs a lot more hours on track and this is one of the problems with sophisticated cars - they cover a multitude of sins and allow people to drive much faster than their skill level. We all know at some point it'll come back to bite them (it's not IF - it's WHEN).
I'm not a fan of turning off nannies for liability reasons and also because if they're going to drive with nannies they need to learn the feel of when nannies are kicking in. You can't turn off ABS but you can sure develop a feel for threshold braking and when ABS kicks in, and when you can barely breathe out of ABS. I understand how turning off nannies and reigning in driving could be helpful but I'm not telling any student to turn off anything (just a personal approach and no disrespect to anyone who opts to do it differently).
Of course ABS is an "in your face" kind of sensation and hard to miss. The nannies to which you refer are much more subtle and much more difficult for someone to sense.
Good luck
07-13-2015, 03:40 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I'll have to talk to him about potentially going back to using his other car for a few events (the car he used before buying the Cayman). It handles very differently (older Audi) but might be enough to get a few spins under his belt.
Outside of my friend - what about other students, whom I've only met that day? Do you seriously just tell a student (who otherwise shows competence on the race track) that they should find a different sport, without offering to come up with alternate ways to get them to learn?
Outside of my friend - what about other students, whom I've only met that day? Do you seriously just tell a student (who otherwise shows competence on the race track) that they should find a different sport, without offering to come up with alternate ways to get them to learn?
I just ran my (new to me) 09 Cayman S for the first time ever, ran times within a few seconds of my race car at Thunderbolt (and I was not pushing!). Street tires, stock everything (except pads and fluid), I was absolutely amazed how relaxed the car was at speed..
07-13-2015, 03:50 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Sorry, but if he is a newly solo'd student, and he is getting a Cayman sideways with the nannies on, he has got to be doing some fundamental things very badly. The first thing I want from ANY student is to be smooth with all inputs, and this becomes more difficult when adding speed. I would have to take a swing and say he needs to slow down and smooth it out. The Cayman is a pretty fast, capable car, and he is over-driving it. Bet he is early apexing (common to someone new trying to add speed) and pinching the exits. Do it right and the nannies don't come on. There needn't be any fancy solutions, he needs to have his reins pulled back until he "gets it".
I just ran my (new to me) 09 Cayman S for the first time ever, ran times within a few seconds of my race car at Thunderbolt (and I was not pushing!). Street tires, stock everything (except pads and fluid), I was absolutely amazed how relaxed the car was at speed..
I just ran my (new to me) 09 Cayman S for the first time ever, ran times within a few seconds of my race car at Thunderbolt (and I was not pushing!). Street tires, stock everything (except pads and fluid), I was absolutely amazed how relaxed the car was at speed..
He didn't start to get sloppy until after I got out of the car. Probably a little bit of "while the cat is away..." and maybe a little bit of over-confidence from getting the solo. (Previous sloppiness was mostly all of last year, and the first session or two this year when it was in the wet).
07-13-2015, 04:10 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
He was hitting everything really well when I was in the car. Smooth and consistent. As someone who takes instructing seriously, AND him being a friend, I would not have sent him off on his way if I didn't feel confident. He's actually only the 2nd student I've ever solo'd. I've never felt any of the other ones (even ones who wanted check rides) really should've been out there on their own.
He didn't start to get sloppy until after I got out of the car. Probably a little bit of "while the cat is away..." and maybe a little bit of over-confidence from getting the solo. (Previous sloppiness was mostly all of last year, and the first session or two this year when it was in the wet).
He didn't start to get sloppy until after I got out of the car. Probably a little bit of "while the cat is away..." and maybe a little bit of over-confidence from getting the solo. (Previous sloppiness was mostly all of last year, and the first session or two this year when it was in the wet).
07-13-2015, 04:15 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Jim, certainly wasn't making comment on your instruction, just that I feel it isn't the nannies that are the issue.. it's his driving. Some people need someone in that right seat and are more confident with knowing there is that safety valve right there. My last yellow student was doing everything right 95% of the time, trying different lines, etc., and when I asked him if he wanted to try a solo run the 2nd day he said "why would I do that when I can have you in the car!" That's a smart student right there..
We don't know each other, and with some of the other instructors (and stories I've heard from students about past instructors), you never know!It's not that I think the nannies are the problem. Clearly it's the driving. It's just that the nannies make it easy to completely miss the little mistakes. They'll cover up a little wiggle, or an overly aggressive throttle application (that might've otherwise caused a little wiggle) and make it so that when they begin to rely (or not know they're doing it wrong) that when they push it a little - they don't realize that they were already going "over the line".
Nannies in general have been a topic of discussion lately. I'll also engage our CDI. A few other instructors in my region have commented about this sort of thing - we've had an influx of new drivers lately with brand new cars (previously a lot of our DE participants were in older, non-PSM equipped cars).
07-13-2015, 04:15 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
from a student perspective- early on I had a really good instructor that could perceive PSM when I didn't. If PSM saved me, he would say ok, we'll count that as a spin, so let's go through hot pit and discuss. Got my attention and helped me focus on sensing what the car was doing.
No better way to get a student's attention than to take or threaten to take the student's track time. Life and limb? Meh. Track time reduced? Whoa! Hold a minute there bub!
I was having a really bad session last year before the lunch break. I was off-line and messing up my heel-toe. My instructor of the day, Fred P., said "you miss another apex again and I am taking you off the track". THAT got my attention real quick. I sat myself down over lunch to think things over. Then I brought my A game to the afternoon sessions. Fred never did order me off the track but I will never forget that instruction!
07-13-2015, 05:01 PM
#26
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Jim, while I think sims are great for training the eyes and developing a sense of both the rate of change and the amount of yaw visually, not sure most newbies can key into that and relate in real life to what is going on. At least until they are more comfy and aware on-track.
I'm surprised at the discussion here, a little bit. While I agree car control and skid pad are the best teachers (first step at SBRS), I think if the nanny light comes on, that does not "count as a spin." C'mon...
I pick the slowest corner on the track to work on this. Gradually and incrementally introduce more speed through the "go/no-go" check (on line? Go to the next step and turn in. Going to make the apex? Yes? Go with throttle application. Pinching the exit? No. Go to full throttle and smooth unwinding. Yes? Do NOT go to full throttle, and instead wait until the car is further down the road to do so).
I don't think driving without PSM on a dry track in a good car with a sensible driver is tantamount to disaster. Do not. Maybe I've been lucky with the people I work with, but working around the nannies is low on the totem pole after first focusing on best execution of fundamental skills. Just my .02...
I'm surprised at the discussion here, a little bit. While I agree car control and skid pad are the best teachers (first step at SBRS), I think if the nanny light comes on, that does not "count as a spin." C'mon...
I pick the slowest corner on the track to work on this. Gradually and incrementally introduce more speed through the "go/no-go" check (on line? Go to the next step and turn in. Going to make the apex? Yes? Go with throttle application. Pinching the exit? No. Go to full throttle and smooth unwinding. Yes? Do NOT go to full throttle, and instead wait until the car is further down the road to do so).
I don't think driving without PSM on a dry track in a good car with a sensible driver is tantamount to disaster. Do not. Maybe I've been lucky with the people I work with, but working around the nannies is low on the totem pole after first focusing on best execution of fundamental skills. Just my .02...
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07-13-2015, 05:23 PM
#27
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Instructors...how many times have you told a student (in the middle of a turn), "Wait, wait, wait for the car to rotate," and they look at you like you're speaking Bulgarian. Feeling a car beneath you...ACTUALLY FEELING WHAT IT IS DOING...is an acquired skill that, frankly, not everyone gets. It's an ah-haaa moment. And once you "get" it, the world of high-performance driving suddenly comes alive and makes sense.
You can spend hours as an instructor saying, "There, feel it? Feel it?" And they don't. And maybe they never will.
You can spend hours as an instructor saying, "There, feel it? Feel it?" And they don't. And maybe they never will.
07-13-2015, 05:26 PM
#28
As someone who just started getting over that hump (7 or so DE experience), I'd say what helped me learn it in dry & wet was to do 2 things.
1. Purchase Track Insurance (oh hey, don't need a miata now )
2. Push my car slowly and be very generous with point bys as I experiment...anything below group 3+ and I have no issue taking it slow and still being faster than the pack simply because I HAVE a new enough porsche with PSM that it's just an extremely fast car.
I found that my corrections for oversteer (and I've had some serious moments in turn 1 @ TWS for those familiar with the track!) come at the same time or even before I oversteer. I think that is the point that needs to be made; if you are trying to correct oversteer before it occurs you are too late.
Your butt needs to feel the lightness of the rear or front and make a subtle correction. I found it was very easy to learn this on a regular ole track just slowly methodically pushing to the edge of traction. You can even practice feeling for the lightness of the car that occurs before oversteer driving on the street! I do it every day at lower speeds and its 100% safe because i'm at the point where i know an extra Milimeter of throttle pedal will = a bit of tire squeal and that is as far as I want to feel on the street.
I got to learn it and continue learning it in a 997c2s and I am very grateful for that.
On another note; I got promoted to advanced group because my instructor was impressed that I wasn't unsettled by a moment on a check ride. He asked me why I did it and I just said I found my limit for trail braking for maximum rotation into that turn
.
1. Purchase Track Insurance (oh hey, don't need a miata now
)2. Push my car slowly and be very generous with point bys as I experiment...anything below group 3+ and I have no issue taking it slow and still being faster than the pack simply because I HAVE a new enough porsche with PSM that it's just an extremely fast car.
I found that my corrections for oversteer (and I've had some serious moments in turn 1 @ TWS for those familiar with the track!) come at the same time or even before I oversteer. I think that is the point that needs to be made; if you are trying to correct oversteer before it occurs you are too late.
Your butt needs to feel the lightness of the rear or front and make a subtle correction. I found it was very easy to learn this on a regular ole track just slowly methodically pushing to the edge of traction. You can even practice feeling for the lightness of the car that occurs before oversteer driving on the street! I do it every day at lower speeds and its 100% safe because i'm at the point where i know an extra Milimeter of throttle pedal will = a bit of tire squeal and that is as far as I want to feel on the street.
I got to learn it and continue learning it in a 997c2s and I am very grateful for that.
On another note; I got promoted to advanced group because my instructor was impressed that I wasn't unsettled by a moment on a check ride. He asked me why I did it and I just said I found my limit for trail braking for maximum rotation into that turn
.
07-13-2015, 05:28 PM
#29
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Jim, while I think sims are great for training the eyes and developing a sense of both the rate of change and the amount of yaw visually, not sure most newbies can key into that and relate in real life to what is going on. At least until they are more comfy and aware on-track.
I'm surprised at the discussion here, a little bit. While I agree car control and skid pad are the best teachers (first step at SBRS), I think if the nanny light comes on, that does not "count as a spin." C'mon...
I pick the slowest corner on the track to work on this. Gradually and incrementally introduce more speed through the "go/no-go" check (on line? Go to the next step and turn in. Going to make the apex? Yes? Go with throttle application. Pinching the exit? No. Go to full throttle and smooth unwinding. Yes? Do NOT go to full throttle, and instead wait until the car is further down the road to do so).
I don't think driving without PSM on a dry track in a good car with a sensible driver is tantamount to disaster. Do not. Maybe I've been lucky with the people I work with, but working around the nannies is low on the totem pole after first focusing on best execution of fundamental skills. Just my .02...
I'm surprised at the discussion here, a little bit. While I agree car control and skid pad are the best teachers (first step at SBRS), I think if the nanny light comes on, that does not "count as a spin." C'mon...
I pick the slowest corner on the track to work on this. Gradually and incrementally introduce more speed through the "go/no-go" check (on line? Go to the next step and turn in. Going to make the apex? Yes? Go with throttle application. Pinching the exit? No. Go to full throttle and smooth unwinding. Yes? Do NOT go to full throttle, and instead wait until the car is further down the road to do so).
I don't think driving without PSM on a dry track in a good car with a sensible driver is tantamount to disaster. Do not. Maybe I've been lucky with the people I work with, but working around the nannies is low on the totem pole after first focusing on best execution of fundamental skills. Just my .02...
07-13-2015, 05:29 PM
#30
Another thing that worked well with a student I had with a bad PSM habit was the aforementioned session goal of not setting it off. All it takes is for the student to nail one corner quickly, and without PSM, to then you can lay this one on them: "See, you can do it fast w/o PSM, now do that on every corner of the track."
IMO, it is important to stress at the beginning that a PSM event is driver error and *not* an accomplishment. Once the student has progressed to an intermediate level, PSM events are not such a big deal provided it is understood why they happened. At that point, one can make an informed choice of was this driver error or was the PSM too intrusive.
I also second the suggestions about a car control school. We have a very successful one here in the LSR PCA region.
-Mike