NetManiac

I've been meaning to post this for a week now but no time.

A little over a week ago I did my first Time Trial at Willow Springs. First of all, what an awesome track. I loved every minute of it, and I can't wait to go back.

Now, I have a couple questions.

1) My best time was 1:42:58. This was my first time at that track so I have nothing to compare it to. There were three other Boxster S' out there but two of them didn't get a time so I only had one time I could compare myself to. Is that a good time for a completely stock Boxster S on that track?

2) Most of Saturday I was late apexing T2, I mean really late. I had good speed off of T1, brake a little for T2, neutral throttle all the way through, apex then power on and track out (or something like that ). On Sunday one of the instructors tried to show me a double apex without braking line. The first time through on this line I got sideways and dropped the front two wheels off the inside of the corner (ugghhh, what a mess ). Needless to say this scared the bejeezus out of me so I went back to doing it the way I knew how. So my question is: What is the preferred way to take this corner? Single late apex or double? What about speed? I think I was comfortable carrying 75 to 80... well actually I don't know. I do know I was hitting the track out point anywhere between 85 and 90 pretty consistently when I was going through "my" way. Should I be going faster at track out?

3) Going into and coming out of T5 I was always in 3rd gear, but low on torque. As I see it I have two options. I can down-shift into 2nd to get more torque on exit, or I can brake a little earlier (maybe even with my left foot???) so I can get on the throttle a little earlier, giving me more torque on exit. What are your thoughts and/or suggestions?

4) I thought I was doing pretty well on T8. I built up to being able to carry 115 through it a couple times, but 110ish pretty consistently. Someone advised me NOT to look at the speedo going through this turn, which seemed to help a lot. Anyway, the question is: should I be able to carry more than 115 through T8 on street tires? If so, how much more would you expect?

I'm probably not going to make it back out to Willow for a month of so. But I really am interested in hearing about your thoughts and opinions before I forget what I wanted to ask.

Thanks,

JackOlsen

Congratulations on making the trip to big Willow, Mike. It's a very fun (and fast) track.

Although I'm not very familiar with how Boxster S's do there, a 1:42 is a very respectable time.

It's interesting that the instructor was trying to get you to double-apex 2. After braking going into 2, I dive in, scrub a little speed off, and then throttle steer through it, staying about a car length off of the inside of the turn early on, then drifting up a little wide, closer to the end (there are a couple of Dunlop signs you can use as visual cues, since the apex isn't visible, at first) so that I can hit the (very late) apex and carry a fair amount of speed into the straight between 2 and 3 without drifting out over the left edge of the track. You should be able to carry more than 75-80 through that turn, but it would depend on your tires. If you're on street tires, then they ought to be screaming out loud through this section.

On Turn 5, I wouldn't downshift to 2nd (although your gearing is probably different than mine). Brake earlier, and be full on the gas from the apex of 5. Short shift before the top of the hill, and stay full on the gas until the exit of eight. One of the biggest hurdles of Willow is learning just how much speed your car can carry through 8. It's just about always more speed than you think it is.

Then again, going off in 8 is, well... very scary.

Turn 1 is also a turn you can carry a lot of speed through. It usually takes a while to trust it, since the track-out part of the turn isn't visible from the apex.

Depending on your track experience, a 1:42 in a 250-hp Boxster S might be good, or just so-so. My best time in a 250-hp 911 on street tires (BFGoodrich G-Force T/A KD's) is a low 1:33, but I've been to the track about ten times.

Here's a link to a couple of turn-by-turn guides to Willow.

M758

My best time in my 944-spec is 1:39.6

This was by taking turn 8 flat. Minimal breaking for 9 with a down shift to 4th. Back to 5th before the s/f line. Light/Moderate braking for 1 and down shift to 4th. I touch the brakes for 2 to get the front to turn, but might not need to. I am nearly flat through 2 staying tight to a late apex exit.

3 is moderate/hard brake to 3rd. Stay wide early and take a late apex. Shoot up the hill and double apex 4. Lift off the gas at the top of 4 to get the car to rotate and get back on it at the 2nd apex of 4 drifting out to the wall. Quick upshift to 4th going into 5 staying on the right side. Touch brake for light braking just as you pass the curb on the right at 5. Quick downshift to 3rd. My car gets loose here and I just left it rotate and I get right back on the gas as the car drops in the dip. The car hooks up nice and I am in the fat part of the power band of 3rd gear. Upshift to 4th just before the rise at 6 which is no biggie in these cars. Flat out run through to 9 staying tight in 8 again.

Remember however this lap is a 2450lb - 131 hp 944 race car with toyo RA-1's.

I have found the track to be quite simple, but being fast requires alot of trust that your car will make it through the coners. Because of the slight banking in most corners the car will stick more than you think.

Brian P

If it helps, the top class E racer (same class as the boxster S) did a 1:33.837. I doubt he was running street tires, though

NetManiac

Thanks for the responses Jack, M758, and Brian.

It was actually only my second time on a big track (California Speedway in June was my first) but it sounds like I have my work cut out for me before I start setting any records .

Jack: Your description of T2 sounds remarkably familiar. Maybe that's what the intructor was trying to get me to do but I was misunderstanding it. Thanks for the link to the turn-by-turn guides, I will be sure to study them closely before going out there next time.

One of the other instructors was telling some of us newbies about a guy that went off in turn 8. Rather than put both feet in this guy only put one in and it was on the throttle and just froze! The instructor had to reach over and yank the car out of gear. Man, that would be SCARY!! At least I know that I am concious enough to NOT do that when I go off.

I also noticed that I have to conciously and continuously remind myself to "look ahead". I found that I kept focusing on the track right in front of me. When I would look ahead I was considerably smoother, I guess that's the point. I'm hopeing that at some point that will become natural. Do you guys still have to concentrate on that or has it become second nature as you have gained experience?

JackOlsen

It's always good to remind yourself to get your eyes further ahead of you on the track. I've noticed that as the day wears on, and my fatigue gets worse, my focal point starts pulling in, closer to the hood -- which is not good.

A dubious honor: I've gone off in every turn on that track except 7. Going off in 8 wasn't the scariest, but it was definitely the fastest. Going over the sand and bumps at that speed is kind of surreal. Very difficult to keep the car pointed straight.

Willow Springs is an interesting track, in that it's easy to learn, but very hard to master.

NetManiac

NOT worry about time?? How the heck am I supposed to do that? I know, I know:

Confuscious say: "To go fast one must first learn to go slow."

One of my autocross instructors keeps telling me that. But it's hard to keep in mind. Most of the time I could just cruise around the track and have a great time. But then there were those times when I came up over a rise, or around a corner and spotted a car I "knew" should be faster than me. That's when I would get the extra rush of adreneline and push just a little harder, "Gotta pass that car!"

But, yes I think I understand what you are saying Kim. It's just difficult to put into practice.

I have not as of yet, budgeted that TracQuest event. However, I have not completely ruled it out.

M758

In my last 944-spec race weekend I went off twice in Turn 9. First time a did a bit too much trail braking and the car did a 1/2 spin. I started to save it when the left rear got into the dirt. I went of the dirt sideways. No biggie except for lots of dust and such.

Next session I was pushing harder. Got into 9 in braking zone very late and was carrying lots of speed. Another car came up behind me I and I lost focus for a second. The car then began to oversteer slightly. I corrected a bit too much and immediatly ran out of paved track and was off in the dirt. I went into straight line braking mode, but the car slowed down at a very gradual rate. It looks like there is alot of run off room at 9 and there is. Just not enough when I was going 95+ . I eventually ran-up the berm about 150+ yards off track. I was so far off track that most racers never even saw my car in the dust. I tore-up the spoiler, bent and broke the left front control arm, and bent the steering tie-rod after going 2 feet up the berm. I was able to fix the car and make the race, but had to baby it around 9 for a few laps. That is also when I remember to look ahead.

Turn 9 is so long and so fast that you must look VERY far ahead to ensure that go around the corner smoothly. Taking the turn right means you are on the edge the entire way around and looking farther ahead means you tend to slow your inputs and make them much more gradual. This means smoother inputs to the car. By the end of the race I was doing a good job through 9, but still had to remind myself pull my head up and to look for the apex and track out points way down the track as I enter 9.

mark kibort

Willow springs is not an easy track, by any streatch. its is very complex, and extremely fast. This is one of the tracks in the world where home track advantage is paramount!
Your 1:43 for your first time on street tires is pretty good. call it 1:38ish on R1s or Hoosiers. you can find 3 seconds with the right instruction, or lead following someone in a simular car.

never seen a double apex at turn2. usually, the fast guys make a long single apex, or find a line with good stick. its a very fast corner, with most cars speeding along near 95mph around it! (mid 1:25ish)

the Porsche production class 911 runs in R6POC, and those guys that are local can run a 1:33 on hoosiers in a 3 liter 911 and a stock weight of 2700lbs.

Its a track where turn 8-9 pay such dividends on time, you cant believe.
just a subtle lift at turn 9 can cost you over 3seconds. the rest of the track is not to bad to get used to , but there is one point at turn 5-6 area where that exit speed determines the speed that you can get to in the turn 9 area. so, blow this exit, and even if you have big xxx's, it wont matter. other than that, lots and lots of track time is required at this track to get it down. Most of the other tracks in california, just require a couple of weekends to get pretty proficient, even Sears Point, a very technical track.

Mark

M758

Mark Glad to hear your assessment.

I have been to Willow Twice for 4 races, for a total of 12 sessions. My best is that 1:39.6 I did in qualfying in July of this year. Official 944-spec record is 1:39.9 set during the last race.
A few years back Rick White Turned a 1:36 in his GP/R9 924S and that is the target for most of us spec guys. It is still pretty far off considering that he carried 200-300 lbs more than us.

I have felt the is more speed out there somewhere. I just figure I need to be nice and tidy and hit my marks just right and I might be able to find it.
Maybe with more seat time we can crank the times down further.

JJG

Mark - That is so true. I've done Willow 5 or 6 times and I'm now just starting to appreciate where the time is.

Looking ahead - ocular vision? - is something I work on every day as I think it is one of the easiest and most important factors in getting the line right. It really gets you focused early. Now I notice that I am able to effectively see things directly in front of me while I am "looking" several hundred yards forward. An analogy - I heard Michael Jordan's peripherial vision was demonstrably wider than many of his peers and was one of the reasons credited for his outstanding performances.

M758 - If Rick's time's are accurate, and assuming they were not achieved with slicks or something, we ought to be able to get our spec cars into the 1.36 range. Dave Turner was telling me yesterday that the Spec RX-7 track record is something like 1:39 - a 130fwhp 2300lb car. I was passing these all day long at my SCCA driving school. Heck, Pete was running 1:39's in my car a couple w/e's ago in his 1st time in a spec 944 (granted I was running my cheater air dam and Fuchs, but the Kumhos were oooold).

JackOlsen

A minute to learn and a lifetime to master. And contrary to its reputation, it's much more of a momentum track than a horsepower track (no second-gear turns, and lots of speed coming into the big straights).

pig4bill

Something else about Willow is the heat and the wind can have a big effect on times. So you have to be careful about comparing times unless you know what conditions were for the various times.