Hi,

Hoping someone who has ran both can give me some insight. I've done Thunderhill 3-mile a couple of times, heading to Laguna Seca for the first time this weekend. I'm a beginner so not really pushing my car that hard. Completely stock car, stock fluids, etc. That said, I've heard that Laguna Seca is more demanding on the brakes. Is this true? Do I need to be more careful about the brakes as the sessions go versus Thunderhill? Any thoughts, insights, etc.? Thanks in advance.

 

I find that Laguna wears the pads about 2-3x faster than Thunderhill 3 mile does. We took about 1mm off the PCCB pads a couple of weeks ago at Laguna (our first time out in the Porsche) with both of us driving. In the old car we've been struggling to find pads which would last for a day there.

Do you know how much you've been wearing off the pads at Thunderhill? It took us a couple of years before we started bothering the brakes. We always make sure to have fresh fluid (less than 3 months old), last time we used RBF600, mainly just because it was offered. If you have fresh fluid you'll probably be fine. Its a fun track.

By the way, Thunderhill 5 mile seems to be about as tough on the brakes as Laguna is.

 

At Laguna Seca the acceleration spots are all up hill, the major braking zones, Turn 2 and Turn 11 are coming off a down hill.

Have your brakes inspected and flushed. Add super brake fluid, and pads if needed. On my 993, I use Pagid Yellows on front, paid Blacks on the back.

Do a You Tube video of the track, especially the Corkscrew...there is a tree you line up on.

The sound limit is 90 dB Max....

Laguna Seca bites if you screw up...just drive the line and have fun.

I have driven Laguna Seca at least a dozen weekends...over the past years. I have never had an incident

 

I find that I go through pads faster at Thunderhill. Primarily because of the braking before 1, and 14 after the long straights. At Laguna, there is the long front straight, and then the lead up to the corkscrew. Those are the only hard braking places for me.

 

Can one be too proactive/prepared? Thunderhill/Laguna Seca, you had better have plenty of pad and fresh brake fluid.

Thunder hill to me, is a more forgiving track than Laguna Seca in most areas, as I recall. Screw up at Thunderhill, pretty good chance you'll have an escape route to some dirt, except turns 11 through 14, screw up there and the walls may bite you.

Laguna Seca, not a lot of run off anywhere...just know that and plan accordingly. It is such a beautiful track, so well maintained...may be a little damp this weekend, Oct/ 31 --- Nov 1st.

 

You've pretty much answered your own question. The only thing missing in the question is if you've got a ceramic brake equipped late model car, or a first generation 928.

From my experience in what have to be the most heavy, underperforming cars you can put on the track at a club DE--BMW sedans with first timers--I've never had a student's car run out of brakes.

 

I've run 6 days there now, the last 4 in the intermediate level. Stock brakes have been fine for me on both the 911 and the cayman. I started to fade the 911 brakes some on my last time there with it towards the end of the later sessions but it wasn't anything I couldn't deal with, and it's not like they will just fail on you all of a sudden. Just make sure you have adequate pad left and good fluid levels before you go out.

 

I have done many, many races and DE events at Laguna Seca. And I have instructed there quite a bit as well.

As my old friend Ken suggests, it is helpful if you indicate what type of car and braking system you have.

In general, big heavy street cars can have more challenges than light, nimble race cars, and braking systems that are okay at other nearby tracks can be challenged at Laguna.

For example, at RR IV, my friend and I both cooked rear caliper seals with our <2000 pound high horsepower 911 race cars. Almost ran into the door of a 944 during quali on Saturday... Turn 11. Neither of us had been to Laguna in a while.

Unlike Ken, I have had students run into issues at Laguna-- folks that did not have issues at Sears Point or Thunderhill. Usually this has been a soft pedal at turn 2 and/or turn 11. Very annoying at minimum. Usually on site bleeding has helped them get through the day.

I'd be prepared by having some good, fresh DOT fluid in the system. Like Ate Super Blue or equivalent. In my experience, this is more important than the type of pads for just starting out. If you cannot get that done before the event, I'd be prepared to do some bleeding on site if at all possible. If you don't have the necessary stuff, perhaps one of your friends will or can bring what is needed. You may not have any problems, but why not be prepared?

Of course the amount of pad material and disc condition should be checked before any track event. A day or two at Laguna shouldn't involve more wear than other tracks, but you can have issues if the pad thickness is near the minimum level.

It pays to take the usual steps for brake cool down at the end of sessions. Really a best practice.

And if there are two drivers, allowing things to cool between sessions can be important.

I have helped many unprepared newbies deal with previously ok braking systems that manifest issues at Laguna, in all sorts of weather conditions. Preparation can be important.

As a side note, if it is wet, it pays to stay off the paint, and to look for grip off line.

 

We see above, "just make sure you have adequate pad left and good fluid levels before you go out." Good fluid levels of good fluid. If you are running a heavier Porsche...993 or a 928, your fluid will be challenged by Turn 2 and Turn 11. For what it costs to run there, usually $350 + or - a day for DE, you don't want to be wasting valuable run time bleeding brakes and changing pads. I have only responding to this post because I have had my brake pedal go soft at Laguna Seca. Luckily I had the know how (Not that tough!) and the Motive bleeder as well as extra fluid to get the job done myself.

 

I'm talking first/second time at track people who feel they're risking their car if they're over 80 braking a pedestrian E90 into T2. Guy in an M5 taking as far as he can, even as a low-intermediate? Yeah, problems can surface.

 

And by the way, I don't know the definition of "pushing that hard." I cannot glean anything from that in a simple internet post.

In my experience, as one learns and climbs the curve in terms of exploiting the car's performance potential, system performance may change. For brakes, I have been in situations and observed many instances where the brake system was okay, and then it wasn't...

I remember back in the day at Thunderhill... a nephrologist with a stock 964 ran into issues in the last morning session. He had nothing with him to address the issues. Luckily the cooperative PCA atmosphere led to him finding help from folks with jacks, jack stands, other tools and supplies to change out the fluid at lunch time.

 

+1 on Ken's post.

You see, it all depends.

Pays to be ready.

Here are three racers with decades of experience at RR IV/Laguna. The two guys in the peanut gallery are "overseeing the work."

One of the guys in the peanut gallery built the car and many like it (mine as well). The owner is Porsche technical expert with vast experience and knowledge.

Like me, the owner spent quite a bit of time that weekend doing bleeds to deal with a soft pedal. He also did some on-site ducting work. Mostly we both just drove around the issues. PITA. Do not like to work on race cars at the track.

I found a leaking rear caliper seal when I got home on Monday, and if I recall correctly, he did too.

 

ive been to and raced at laguna Seca probably more than anyone here, for sure. I can tell you the formula Is pretty simple for what track will tax the brakes most, but more importantly, as a beginner what techniques will tax the brakes most.
laguna is harder on brakes in one turn, turn 2.... you go faster to slowest vs any other track around. 130 to 45mph in a decently fast race car. street cars, more like 100 to 110 to near 40mph. the rest of the track is point and shoot, most have quick stabs on the brakes with the exception of the corkscrew and turn 11.
the trick here is on and off the brakes quickly. that's the art of performance driving for sure. don't be shy and get someone experienced to ride for a lap.
thunderhill is a little easier on brakes , and has one braking zone that is 80% of the punishment of laguna.. the approach to 13-14 coming down from 120mph. the reast are quick stabs and not too hard on the brakes, with good amounts of time in between with high speeds to add to cooling effects.

at the speeds you are going at, the car should work find for many laps. however, street fluid and pads are very unforgiving for braking techniques that can over heat the pads, calipers and then fluid. So, watch some video and get in the mind set of quick on and off the brakes. no dragging. no braking early. if you want to brake early... coast off throttle to the braking point and then on and off the brakes quickly.

have fun and be safe. listen to the car.. it will tell you when things are fading or going bad. laguna is more unforgiving than thunderhill, so if you ever do have a point where you put the car in a place where it cant recover. don't try and get back on line or on track. drive the car within its capabilities, even if it mean driving in the dirt for a long way in a straight line. the folks ive seen get into 90% of all problems, over correct, or try and get back on track too quickly when in the dirt, or use too much steering input to avoid the dirt, only causing major issues as they get on the dirt. Drive the first sessions at 75-80% learn the track and feel. working on quick hard brake sequences.