fleadh

IMO, the only hard part about driving a race car quickly (as in, as fast as it could possibly go) around a race track is from the time you decelerate (either lifting or going to the brakes) and the time you go back to power (basically, the apex). Everything else is exponentially easier.

I respectfully disagree with JR on the spinning. You don't need to spin to learn... make smaller changes in your technique/approach to keep from going so far over the limit that you can't save it. Of course, we all spin sometimes.. but it's not required to improve, IMO.

Btw, I've been lucky enough to work with Ross Bentley on test and race weekends and he is one of the smartest ***** I've ever met. If you ever get a chance to chat with him or listen to what he's saying, take notes! :-)

-mike

Matt Romanowski

I had to read this twice to understand it, but I completely agree. Brakes to apex is the hardest part to master.

A great Skip Barber instructor told me once "There are three things to driving fast; 1. Drive the Line, 2. Exit Speed, 3. Entry speed. I can teach a monkey to do the first two. The last one is really hard and scary!"

He is great. He just did an online Speed Secrets seminar (webinar). It was great and the last session had a few things in it that made the fee worth every penny regardless of everything else (which was great).

jrgordonsenior

Good point. Didn't mean to infer that spinning was necessary to learn, only not to be afraid of spinning when pushing your limitations....

gbuff

Some classes I've attended use the example of the string between brake foot and steering wheel....as the wheel turns the string pulls foot off brake pedal.

As Tommy Byrne likes to say: "Brake early, turn early, gas early....."

Gary

utkinpol

It is true, but, realistically in order to learn one has to make mistakes. That is how you learn not to make those mistakes again. Most best drivers i know do not even care to think about those basics like that as they did karting since they were teenagers and got all that, well, way way way long ago, how to spin out safely, how to control slide, how to powersteer. To learn it in your 40s or even later is a whole different ballgame.

Good thing to do for anybody who wants to take (new) car on a race track is to swallow their pride, sign for an AX event with any local club or scca and go test out suspension and test how car behaves at grip limits and above those limits. I see it at almost every event i go to how people come off track and completely lack simplest basic reflexes to catch that car as it starts to slip out and they simply cannot recover it safely or do overcorrect it and start idiotic spinning dance from one side of track to another.

And no one at all teaches this stuff, there are no good generic rally schools in states (or may be I do not know of any), only thing you get as an advice at DE typically is this stupid notion to push both feet in and wait for an impact.

utkinpol

You mean get off brakes 100% when cars nose looks right at apex, or when you only start turning steering toward apex? As if latter with enough speed into turn if you release weight from front you will only get off track as you will lose most front grip with brakes release.

I understand logically i need to maintain some balance using both brakes and tire's slip angle to keep front springs compressed at same rate to keep grip level constant but a practical implementation typically sucks, consistency wise. it is like i am almost there but rarely nail it 100 % and just cannot develop a reflex to 'feel' it automatically and it sucks.
but i am only doing it for 5 years now in this car, will see what next 5 years will do.

TXE36

This same thing was observed several times at the Andy Lally event at TWS last November. Andy drove about 40 cars, most with data and a very clear difference was Andy's ability to "fill out the corners". His corner entry speeds were far better than most even at the expense of exit speeds in some cases. If you had to pick one thing that made the difference in the lap times, this would be it.

For example, in my car, going from T7 entry to T10 entry, my exit speed at T9 was 3-4 MPH faster, but his elapsed time over the segment was nearly a second quicker because he maintained more speed at the entry of T7, T8, and T9. The straight from T9 to T10 was too short to allow me to make up for it with the higher exit speed out of T9. Andy specifically altered the line through T8 to T9 to keep the speed up (he told me specifically because I asked him in the car at the time).

I've found that if I chicken brake at the entry to T7 even a little it takes several MPH off my speed into the braking zone of T8. IMO, a pretty clear example of the same concept executed poorly .

-Mike

mark kibort

spinning is having multiple things go wrong, not just one. or putting it in percentages, its like driving 120% over you or your cars ability, vs 110% which is correctable. I agree with you mike.

Veloce Raptor

EGG zactly.

Some of us have been saying this here for years...

PPo

One of my biggest leaps in understanding car control was when I spun my 944 Turbo. I got off the brakes too quickly going into turn 3 at Mosport and the car snapped around. At the time, I had no clue what happened. It all fell into place after I thought about what I did to make that happen...

I grew up in the outskirts of Ottawa, Canada... My neighborhood had lots of turns, and in the winter usually has 6-8 foot high snow banks which where very forgiving. I would spend many evenings pretending to be Walter Rohl.... but I spent many more evenings trying to dig my car out of the snow banks. Those winter nights taught me that you need to caress the pedals to urge the car into the direction you want to go... It took me too long to translate those lessons the track for some reason. Forceful but gentle... quick but easy... fast but smooth...

Ice Racing (without studs) really separates people who understand these concepts... Always funny to see people blow by in the braking areas to then have so much trouble trying to settle the car to come out of the corner... The smart, gentle drivers look like they are cheating...

JustinL

I think over the last few years of my learning, I'm transitioning from thinking about inputs (gas, brake, steering) to thinking more in terms of 1. Where is the car on the race track 2. What is the linear velocity of the car and 3. How is the car rotating. To me the inputs influence these three things I'm mentally keeping track of, but the inputs are not exclusive to one dimension i.e., steering affects rotation, position, and velocity.

Teaching requires a more rigid system for a person's brain. That's why we have "braking zones" and "turn-in points". New students need these anchors to just start the process. Slow in, fast out gives students an easy starting point that is safe and splits the inputs into a more intuitive "brakes slow the car, steering turns the car, and gas speeds up the car". Just IMHO of course.

mark kibort

My take on it is that you need to decel as quickly as possible. That is by definition, threshold braking. just because you are braking earlier than some, doesn't mean you are braking early or less than at the cars max capability. you are braking correctly! What this means is that you slow the car down to the proper turn in speed, and continue to brake in the initial stages of the turn to get the car on its turning circle. once on its turning circle, the best grip and highest lateral acceleration , is neutral gas/brake. once just before the apex or at it, depending on the turn the steering starts to uncoil, and proportional gas is applied. A late braker doesn't necessarily mean he is late braking correctly. he could be carrying too much speed into the turn and create less than optimal slip angles, car direction and lines through the turn



yep.... a lot of time in the snow, really helps with car control at the limit. especially in high hp cars, its easy to get on the throttle too early, not feel those warning signs and have the car seemingly "suddenly" snap around. however, those warning signs are pretty loud usually and can help that from ever happening.
the biggest error in driving that I see at the track is folks asking the car to do something it cant, at that particular speed and set of conditions.
examples: trying to get back on track too quickly (pavement ) when in the dirt. Too fast of turn in speed, but attempt to follow desired line anyway. Hands in bad position and during the car over the limit, corrective input is at the wrong amount (too much or too little). This is what gets most in trouble. Best is to find the limits of the car and when over them understand what you can and cant do to get the car back under full control.

ProCoach

Good post, Mark. Agreed.

Nizer

Whenever I hear this topic discussed this video immediately comes to mind. Skill+*****.

ProCoach

Yep. That's it...