Nice little slide at Watkins Glen
10-09-2014, 08:14 PM
#16
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Great post. Thanks for putting it up here. Posts like this are very informative and many of us can learn from others' experiences.
I also find T10 very tricky. It's one of those corners where you have to build up confidence gradually. From moderate braking prior to entry, to light braking, to eventually just a lift prior to entry. The track definitely has nice positive camber to it when you run the correct line, and that helps keep the car planted and carrying more speed than you would have thought possible. A track walk is invaluable here--definitely shows you how much banking there is. My Glen track walk was probably one of the most informative things I've ever done in my four years of HPDE events.
Despite being in a position of taking the turn off-line, and not fully unwinding on track out, and pinching it a bit, you reacted really well--quick hands. I like how the video shows your eyes/where you're looking. You recovered, and quickly checked your mirrors to make sure the Mini wasn't right on you. Seemed very calm.
I also run white with PCA. I'm assuming it's the same level for the Niagara region--high intermediate (Green, Yellow, Blue, White, Black, Red/instructor). Whether or not you brush the brakes for T10 seems to be dependent on so many factors--your car's speed, your car's tires/weight/cornering capability, and your skill level. Becoming better and faster certainly does change your braking reference points as you carry more speed on the approach to and through corners. I managed to break into the 2:19s at the Glen in my 2011 M3 last year on R-comps, and this year I got into the 2:17s in my 991S on street tires, but it's still variable as to whether or not I brush the brakes for T10. Depends on traffic, my speed, whether I'm on the right line and how confident I feel. Hoping to become more and more consistent with more experience.
Thanks again for posting.
I also find T10 very tricky. It's one of those corners where you have to build up confidence gradually. From moderate braking prior to entry, to light braking, to eventually just a lift prior to entry. The track definitely has nice positive camber to it when you run the correct line, and that helps keep the car planted and carrying more speed than you would have thought possible. A track walk is invaluable here--definitely shows you how much banking there is. My Glen track walk was probably one of the most informative things I've ever done in my four years of HPDE events.
Despite being in a position of taking the turn off-line, and not fully unwinding on track out, and pinching it a bit, you reacted really well--quick hands. I like how the video shows your eyes/where you're looking. You recovered, and quickly checked your mirrors to make sure the Mini wasn't right on you. Seemed very calm.
I also run white with PCA. I'm assuming it's the same level for the Niagara region--high intermediate (Green, Yellow, Blue, White, Black, Red/instructor). Whether or not you brush the brakes for T10 seems to be dependent on so many factors--your car's speed, your car's tires/weight/cornering capability, and your skill level. Becoming better and faster certainly does change your braking reference points as you carry more speed on the approach to and through corners. I managed to break into the 2:19s at the Glen in my 2011 M3 last year on R-comps, and this year I got into the 2:17s in my 991S on street tires, but it's still variable as to whether or not I brush the brakes for T10. Depends on traffic, my speed, whether I'm on the right line and how confident I feel. Hoping to become more and more consistent with more experience.
Thanks again for posting.
I've always been something of a natural at capturing & saving cars in slides. Perhaps from driving in snow & ice at a young age?
Niagara runs four group levels, with a split within white. Green is beginners, white is intermediate, but with white-advanced driving solo, and then there's the crazy talented people in the black and red run groups that blow my mind.
10-09-2014, 08:15 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
Nice save 
In addition to everything mentioned here, try a 9&3 grip as opposed to 10&2. Don't hook your thumbs, caress the steering wheel, don't grip it - this will improve sensation/feedback/feel.
9&3 allows more subtle/gentle initial inputs because your hands are on the same axis as the hub (decreased leverage). 9&3 also decreases reach to the steering wheel when you make bigger corrections (like this one!).
In addition to everything mentioned here, try a 9&3 grip as opposed to 10&2. Don't hook your thumbs, caress the steering wheel, don't grip it - this will improve sensation/feedback/feel.
9&3 allows more subtle/gentle initial inputs because your hands are on the same axis as the hub (decreased leverage). 9&3 also decreases reach to the steering wheel when you make bigger corrections (like this one!).
10-09-2014, 08:24 PM
#18
Unwind the wheel sooner.
You started inside at turn-in, so if you keep the speed the same, you're going to run off the track at track out.
T10's camber disappears at track-out.
DO NOT fear running off the track. Usually it's better to go straight off in a controlled manner (with brakes) instead of fighting to stay "on track" and lose control of the car.
And that's stupid place to put a track-out cone.... it's got "Hit Me" written all over it.
You started inside at turn-in, so if you keep the speed the same, you're going to run off the track at track out.
T10's camber disappears at track-out.
DO NOT fear running off the track. Usually it's better to go straight off in a controlled manner (with brakes) instead of fighting to stay "on track" and lose control of the car.
And that's stupid place to put a track-out cone.... it's got "Hit Me" written all over it.
10-09-2014, 09:55 PM
#19
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10-09-2014, 10:36 PM
#20
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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10-10-2014, 07:23 AM
#23
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Exactly. I'm sure your heart rate was way up but you held your composure (or at least your instincts did!).
As was mentioned, several years ago that whole are was converted to pavement outside of T10. It looks like it's not a very large patch but when you go have a look at it, there is plenty of room to go off and regroup. The track did the same thing at T1 where you can run right off into a paved area. Come to think of it, the whole bus stop has paving in the run off areas too. Hmmmm, I see a pattern.
As was mentioned, several years ago that whole are was converted to pavement outside of T10. It looks like it's not a very large patch but when you go have a look at it, there is plenty of room to go off and regroup. The track did the same thing at T1 where you can run right off into a paved area. Come to think of it, the whole bus stop has paving in the run off areas too. Hmmmm, I see a pattern.
10-10-2014, 09:59 AM
#24
I'll agree--very nice save....could've been much worse.
Entering T10 on the "normal" (that is, not passing anyone) line, what helps me is to make the track as wide as possible on entry i.e. get your right-side wheels over the white line prior to turning in (your instructor will love that but it works for me). Just that extra foot or so helps. At the apex, look where the black rubber is on the inside curbing--if your car will do it that's where you want to be. Same for T11--you can really take that turn quite a bit earlier than the prescribed DE line, as the rubber indicates....that's where the racers go 'cos it's the fastest way around.
Really, unless you're passing someone as you were on the video you probably don't need to brake for 10--I drive a stock non-S Mini on street tires and on a good day I can take it flat, or with just a tiny lift prior to turn-in. I'm running in the 2:30-31 range so our times are similar. But, that's up to you and your comfort level.
Not an instructor, but done a lap or two at WGI.....if you do have an instructor in-car with you, listen to him or her--they do what they do because they're good. Important thing is to stay within yourself and enjoy!
Gary
Entering T10 on the "normal" (that is, not passing anyone) line, what helps me is to make the track as wide as possible on entry i.e. get your right-side wheels over the white line prior to turning in (your instructor will love that but it works for me). Just that extra foot or so helps. At the apex, look where the black rubber is on the inside curbing--if your car will do it that's where you want to be. Same for T11--you can really take that turn quite a bit earlier than the prescribed DE line, as the rubber indicates....that's where the racers go 'cos it's the fastest way around.
Really, unless you're passing someone as you were on the video you probably don't need to brake for 10--I drive a stock non-S Mini on street tires and on a good day I can take it flat, or with just a tiny lift prior to turn-in. I'm running in the 2:30-31 range so our times are similar. But, that's up to you and your comfort level.
Not an instructor, but done a lap or two at WGI.....if you do have an instructor in-car with you, listen to him or her--they do what they do because they're good. Important thing is to stay within yourself and enjoy!
Gary
04-29-2017, 09:33 PM
#27
I just watched this video and thought I would bump it for the new crop of DE kids like me.
You can hear the engine revving as he breaks free. So the slide was not from lift off oversteer.
Can we recap the lesson here? This is my understanding: He took an early apex in both turns. However, he carried the same speed as a late apex. So, he ran out of track.
All the DE guys on this list know the learning aid they teach you ....envision a string connecting your steering wheel to your gas pedal. Enter the turn with “maintenance throttle”, then when you hit apex, you smoothly start to give more gas. Due to the hypothetical string, as you press the gas, you must unwind the steering wheel. With enough speed, this pretty much happens automatically, as the car naturally pushes towards track out. By the time you reach track out, your foot is on the floor, and the wheel is straight.
But, the driver fights that, since he’s too fast in the turn, and his line is going to run out of track. He hits the (early) apex, hits the gas, but keeps the wheel locked until the track out cone to compensate for his incorrect speed/line. So, the right thing was to unwind the wheel, and go over the rumble strip? You can see that Turn 11 at WGI has tons of run off. So the other lesson here is to know your track!
You can hear the engine revving as he breaks free. So the slide was not from lift off oversteer.
Can we recap the lesson here? This is my understanding: He took an early apex in both turns. However, he carried the same speed as a late apex. So, he ran out of track.
All the DE guys on this list know the learning aid they teach you ....envision a string connecting your steering wheel to your gas pedal. Enter the turn with “maintenance throttle”, then when you hit apex, you smoothly start to give more gas. Due to the hypothetical string, as you press the gas, you must unwind the steering wheel. With enough speed, this pretty much happens automatically, as the car naturally pushes towards track out. By the time you reach track out, your foot is on the floor, and the wheel is straight.
But, the driver fights that, since he’s too fast in the turn, and his line is going to run out of track. He hits the (early) apex, hits the gas, but keeps the wheel locked until the track out cone to compensate for his incorrect speed/line. So, the right thing was to unwind the wheel, and go over the rumble strip? You can see that Turn 11 at WGI has tons of run off. So the other lesson here is to know your track!
04-30-2017, 12:40 AM
#28
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Thank you Sugarwood for bringing this back to the top - great video to watch and learn from as we kick off the new season (at least for those of us with a "winter" season). One thing only lightly mentioned in prior posts: The importance of adjusting the driving line and corresponding speed when passing traffic. The driver in this video went off of his ideal line to pass a Mini...and likely have required a brake adjustment when none was needed on prior laps. These types of adjustments are something that I am working on as I get faster and am passing people while driving off of the ideal line, as opposed to staying on the racing line and pointing others by.
And great save by the OP - nicely done! Really appreciate you sharing the video.
And great save by the OP - nicely done! Really appreciate you sharing the video.
04-30-2017, 10:25 AM
#29
Thank you Sugarwood for bringing this back to the top - great video to watch and learn from as we kick off the new season (at least for those of us with a "winter" season). One thing only lightly mentioned in prior posts: The importance of adjusting the driving line and corresponding speed when passing traffic. The driver in this video went off of his ideal line to pass a Mini...and likely have required a brake adjustment when none was needed on prior laps. These types of adjustments are something that I am working on as I get faster and am passing people while driving off of the ideal line, as opposed to staying on the racing line and pointing others by.
Gary
05-01-2017, 12:30 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Nice save
In addition to everything mentioned here, try a 9&3 grip as opposed to 10&2. Don't hook your thumbs, caress the steering wheel, don't grip it - this will improve sensation/feedback/feel.
9&3 allows more subtle/gentle initial inputs because your hands are on the same axis as the hub (decreased leverage). 9&3 also decreases reach to the steering wheel when you make bigger corrections (like this one!).
In addition to everything mentioned here, try a 9&3 grip as opposed to 10&2. Don't hook your thumbs, caress the steering wheel, don't grip it - this will improve sensation/feedback/feel.
9&3 allows more subtle/gentle initial inputs because your hands are on the same axis as the hub (decreased leverage). 9&3 also decreases reach to the steering wheel when you make bigger corrections (like this one!).