Racing Brake Pad / Brake system discussion/questions
08-06-2014 | 04:40 PM
#451
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,549
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From: Texas
Can you use the poly tranny mounts with stock motor mounts? I used to have the Vorshlag poly setup, but had the motor mounts failed during the TWS Lally event and I went back to stock. I use the UUC shift technique to minimize risk.
Frankly, I've had a lot of problems with aftermarket "performance" parts on the track. More often than not, the bone stock BMW parts are actually best even if they have to be serviced more often. Very few aftermarket suppliers have testing as rigorous as BMW or Porsche. As always, YMMV.
I've been kicking around putting the Vorshlag tranny mounts back in with the BW fake Type-N motor mounts. The Vorshlag tranny mounts are very similar to the ones you linked. One thing I hated about the poly motor mounts was the NVH on the street as I still daily drive the car as well as track it.
-Mike
Frankly, I've had a lot of problems with aftermarket "performance" parts on the track. More often than not, the bone stock BMW parts are actually best even if they have to be serviced more often. Very few aftermarket suppliers have testing as rigorous as BMW or Porsche. As always, YMMV.
I've been kicking around putting the Vorshlag tranny mounts back in with the BW fake Type-N motor mounts. The Vorshlag tranny mounts are very similar to the ones you linked. One thing I hated about the poly motor mounts was the NVH on the street as I still daily drive the car as well as track it.
-Mike
08-06-2014 | 04:49 PM
#452
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Deep Downtown Carrier, OK
08-06-2014 | 07:52 PM
#455
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From: saratoga, ca
The bolts are there for a reason- do some research on brake torque. There is a lot of force going on when the caliper & pad tries to stop a rotor.
The aluminum rivets are dangerous to yourself and the others around you.
Those rotors are scrap- worn out (see lip) and cracked at the cooling holes plus they have who knows what pad material on them. Probably won't properly bed in whatever pads you decide to use.
The aluminum rivets are dangerous to yourself and the others around you.
Those rotors are scrap- worn out (see lip) and cracked at the cooling holes plus they have who knows what pad material on them. Probably won't properly bed in whatever pads you decide to use.
Well?
BTW, there are plenty of very fast drivers who don't know the egghead physics stuff but they sure can apply it pedaling a car around a race track. Personally, I'd rather be the fast guy with "no clue" than the egghead who "understands" it, but is slow, any day.
-Mike
BTW, there are plenty of very fast drivers who don't know the egghead physics stuff but they sure can apply it pedaling a car around a race track. Personally, I'd rather be the fast guy with "no clue" than the egghead who "understands" it, but is slow, any day.
-Mike
For just about any kind of real accuracy, the math here is considerably more difficult than you give it credit for. It isn't just the math, it is also the diverse unknowns and non-linearities present. It is Ph. D. and post doc sort of stuff. The "math" in this thread is nothing more than crude estimates.
Oh, I know the pop rivets won't work - I'm just not convinced you know it won't work.
Electrical engineer with 27 years of experience and more school than I care to go into. BTW, I asked you first.
I think people here have been cutting you a lot of slack. I know I have and I don't quite know why. I think it is obviously that you are an enthusiastic track guy and I get that, but you should probably check out a course such as Crucial Conversations. They guys you are insulting have a lot more cred than you do. When a lot of people don't react the way you expect and they all appear to be wrong it is usually the fault of the fellow in the mirror. Especially with something as pedestrian as car physics.
-Mike
Oh, I know the pop rivets won't work - I'm just not convinced you know it won't work.
Electrical engineer with 27 years of experience and more school than I care to go into. BTW, I asked you first.
I think people here have been cutting you a lot of slack. I know I have and I don't quite know why. I think it is obviously that you are an enthusiastic track guy and I get that, but you should probably check out a course such as Crucial Conversations. They guys you are insulting have a lot more cred than you do. When a lot of people don't react the way you expect and they all appear to be wrong it is usually the fault of the fellow in the mirror. Especially with something as pedestrian as car physics.
-Mike
a good engineer , and racing coach will look at this and do the quick analysis. usually thats enough to start looking at the driver as the cause of the deficiency. without the math and physics, you might find the answer, but it might take longer. fortunately, the telemetry systems help in a big way. takes all the fun out of the calculations though!
All great and valid points Jim.
They do call them floating discs for a reason.
MK, those hats look like Charlie's work. Wrightwood racing, if you don't know him you should. Just ask around, or better yet go thru a middleman in your area like GMG or one of the other shops that knows him and sells his stuff.
I have some of Charlies bobbins in my parts pins, along with PFC bobbins, AP bobbins, and some others, but I'm not selling them to you.
The Bobbins (thats what they call those mounting bolts) are very critical little items, done incorrectly at best they will not perform as they should, in worst case like your Alum. pop rivet suggestion (not a good joke, if it really was) the result would be catastrophic and quite possibly deadly to you or another on track with you.
The bobbins btw are not a secure mounting like a rivet, torque depending on type and brand and design is 4-12 ft lbs. But don't believe me, google "brake rotor bobbin" lots of great info out there.
I think if I ever had the potential to be on track at the same time with you MK, I would respectfully pass and sit out that session or weekend. Just too much at risk.
They do call them floating discs for a reason.
MK, those hats look like Charlie's work. Wrightwood racing, if you don't know him you should. Just ask around, or better yet go thru a middleman in your area like GMG or one of the other shops that knows him and sells his stuff.
I have some of Charlies bobbins in my parts pins, along with PFC bobbins, AP bobbins, and some others, but I'm not selling them to you.
The Bobbins (thats what they call those mounting bolts) are very critical little items, done incorrectly at best they will not perform as they should, in worst case like your Alum. pop rivet suggestion (not a good joke, if it really was) the result would be catastrophic and quite possibly deadly to you or another on track with you.
The bobbins btw are not a secure mounting like a rivet, torque depending on type and brand and design is 4-12 ft lbs. But don't believe me, google "brake rotor bobbin" lots of great info out there.
I think if I ever had the potential to be on track at the same time with you MK, I would respectfully pass and sit out that session or weekend. Just too much at risk.
my car is very safe since i changed to steel braided lines. (not safe that day, for sure that they blew after 15 years of racing . that was dumb) other than that, i would have to say, i am probably the safest racer out there. You never ever, see me pointed backward or in a sandtrap like VR. with people i coach, i try to show them car control tricks, and racing position concepts that can help keep them safe and keep others around them from crashing into them.
These rotors are not going on the car until I'm convinced they are safe.
08-06-2014 | 08:03 PM
#456
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: saratoga, ca
Viking, tell me more of these hats. the rotors look to be brembo and im not missing any hardware except for a couple (2) of the small allen head bolts.... all the bobbens are there . what about the the anti vibration square washers that i see on brembos.... are they needed or desired, or is that a hat design component?
If i was to replace them, I think i was told they are a 965T upgrade package that is for the smaller brembo calipers like i use. (ST40 style)..... so they are a true 13" rotor.
i would think that brembo or coleman would make replacement friction rings... but i would first like to know who made these hats.
thanks,
Mk
If i was to replace them, I think i was told they are a 965T upgrade package that is for the smaller brembo calipers like i use. (ST40 style)..... so they are a true 13" rotor.
i would think that brembo or coleman would make replacement friction rings... but i would first like to know who made these hats.
thanks,
Mk
08-06-2014 | 08:07 PM
#457
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2013
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From: TX
-Mike
08-06-2014 | 08:39 PM
#458
Nordschleife Master
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From: Deep Downtown Carrier, OK
08-06-2014 | 08:53 PM
#459
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From: Carmel, IN
Should be fine as long as you don't drive flat out.
I think i may have found part of the solution
I founds some hats and rotors that might fit together. I'm missing some hardware, so i figured i would find a way to save some weight. After all, im going to save 5lbs per rotor, which 10lbs rotating. And, thats like 1.5hp as if it was in the car.
these have holes, so i think they might last only a weekend or two, based on my luck with the smaller diameter holed 965T rotors i used to use before i went flat.
question, to save even more weight, I was thinking of using aluminum rivets instead of the steel bolts. they fit well and seem like they really press the rotor to the hat for better heat transfer.
should I use steel or aluminum rivets? the aluminum are about 1/3 the weight.
thanks
I founds some hats and rotors that might fit together. I'm missing some hardware, so i figured i would find a way to save some weight. After all, im going to save 5lbs per rotor, which 10lbs rotating. And, thats like 1.5hp as if it was in the car.
these have holes, so i think they might last only a weekend or two, based on my luck with the smaller diameter holed 965T rotors i used to use before i went flat.
question, to save even more weight, I was thinking of using aluminum rivets instead of the steel bolts. they fit well and seem like they really press the rotor to the hat for better heat transfer.
should I use steel or aluminum rivets? the aluminum are about 1/3 the weight.
thanks
08-06-2014 | 09:40 PM
#460
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a good engineer , and racing coach will look at this and do the quick analysis. usually thats enough to start looking at the driver as the cause of the deficiency. without the math and physics, you might find the answer, but it might take longer.
fortunately, the telemetry systems help in a big way. takes all the fun out of the calculations though!
fortunately, the telemetry systems help in a big way. takes all the fun out of the calculations though!
IMO, there is no "fun" about the calculatons. That's why I have a computer and many decent software programs, including analysis programs supplied by MoTeC, AiM, Bosch, Marelli, Pi and others that measure THE SPECIFIC parameters needed to improve driver and car performance.
Most folks don't have enough time between events, let alone sessions, to go through the information manually to the level of detail required to formulate a move in a particular direction. But many folks do have time to learn how to do that from excellent teachers like Jorge Segers, Roger Caddell or John Block.
The knowledge is out there. The tools exist to measure. Use them...
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
08-07-2014 | 11:48 AM
#462
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From: saratoga, ca
In order to do the best, most objective analysis, you need the measure (the actual end result) supplied by the modern range of data acquisition systems.
IMO, there is no "fun" about the calculatons. That's why I have a computer and many decent software programs, including analysis programs supplied by MoTeC, AiM, Bosch, Marelli, Pi and others that measure THE SPECIFIC parameters needed to improve driver and car performance.
Most folks don't have enough time between events, let alone sessions, to go through the information manually to the level of detail required to formulate a move in a particular direction. But many folks do have time to learn how to do that from excellent teachers like Jorge Segers, Roger Caddell or John Block.
The knowledge is out there. The tools exist to measure. Use them...
IMO, there is no "fun" about the calculatons. That's why I have a computer and many decent software programs, including analysis programs supplied by MoTeC, AiM, Bosch, Marelli, Pi and others that measure THE SPECIFIC parameters needed to improve driver and car performance.
Most folks don't have enough time between events, let alone sessions, to go through the information manually to the level of detail required to formulate a move in a particular direction. But many folks do have time to learn how to do that from excellent teachers like Jorge Segers, Roger Caddell or John Block.
The knowledge is out there. The tools exist to measure. Use them...
And the data was there to analyse from these tools. sometimes all we have is video, and guess what, given a distances, speeds, times, we can calculate and average quite a bit.
MIKE, man,
Yes, I was a digital motion control system design enigeer for 15 years, with a lot of work done on air flow management systems. primary course of study in college, was Aero Engineering.
I ve spent a lot of time using the old books for discussions like this, in a way that i probably couldnt during the course work.
This discussion is interesting because, so many, including you and KaiiB have left out so many factors that are really so important.
sure, we could use some calculus and really do some fun.(and tedious as Peter said) integration calculation. but why, we are just trying to find the smoking gun, not find out its caliber. so, using averages for speed, while not that accurate, can point us in the right direction.
08-07-2014 | 12:15 PM
#464
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From: saratoga, ca
08-07-2014 | 01:53 PM
#465
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,549
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From: Texas
They just look like Charlies work, each manufacture/fabricator/driver/etc has a certain style that is distinguishable in some form or fashion. Like you, I see a one handed steer, with keys dangling away killing an ignition switch, right hand on gearshift **** holding it in gear in a 928 race car and I think well, it's gotta either be MK or MA, it's not MA, so it must be MK.
Back on subject, I could be wrong, but I doubt it, it just looks like Charlies work, Charlie is one of those guys that has forgotten more about brakes than you, I, Peter Krause, and the 5 best other brake guys on here combined ever knew or will know.
He's just that good and has that much experience and know how.
He's built hats for various models, especially Porsche, to use different rotors from Brembo,AP, and others as needed for applications from a custom street setup to optimum sprint setup,to the 24hrs of Daytona and more.
I'll enclose a picture of a rotor I have here that I know came from Charlie, you can even see the WR logo on this one. You tell me if you don't notice the similarities.
Yes, you need those washers, and should replace the bolts, the rotors should float slightly, it's normal for them to move, have a slight amount of play, and make a little noise, that's part of the design and benefits of a floating two piece rotor.
Yes, it's possible Charlie is using a Brembo or Coleman ring/bobbin/bolt washer set up and not making his own, but the guy makes a living at this, I'm not gonna search around to figure that out to save $20-50. bucks and cheat him out of a little profit so he can support his wife and family.
You make a good living, as does your wife I am sure, just pay the man for his time in R&D to figure out what will be best in your application, it's worth it.
Charlie has certain vendors he works with, find someone in your area that deals with him and give them a credit card and order whatever he says you need.
I actually have more to add on your brake issue, I think I might know what the bottom line on your brake fade is, and I also have comments on the heat hp thread. But I don't have any more time at moment to properly explain so you will just have to wait till I do have some idle computer time.
BTW, don't bug Charlie, he's great but has no time for silliness and stupidity.
Better to just use one of his venders, you will be better served that way, trust me.
Have a great day,
Viking
Back on subject, I could be wrong, but I doubt it, it just looks like Charlies work, Charlie is one of those guys that has forgotten more about brakes than you, I, Peter Krause, and the 5 best other brake guys on here combined ever knew or will know.
He's just that good and has that much experience and know how.
He's built hats for various models, especially Porsche, to use different rotors from Brembo,AP, and others as needed for applications from a custom street setup to optimum sprint setup,to the 24hrs of Daytona and more.
I'll enclose a picture of a rotor I have here that I know came from Charlie, you can even see the WR logo on this one. You tell me if you don't notice the similarities.
Yes, you need those washers, and should replace the bolts, the rotors should float slightly, it's normal for them to move, have a slight amount of play, and make a little noise, that's part of the design and benefits of a floating two piece rotor.
Yes, it's possible Charlie is using a Brembo or Coleman ring/bobbin/bolt washer set up and not making his own, but the guy makes a living at this, I'm not gonna search around to figure that out to save $20-50. bucks and cheat him out of a little profit so he can support his wife and family.
You make a good living, as does your wife I am sure, just pay the man for his time in R&D to figure out what will be best in your application, it's worth it.
Charlie has certain vendors he works with, find someone in your area that deals with him and give them a credit card and order whatever he says you need.
I actually have more to add on your brake issue, I think I might know what the bottom line on your brake fade is, and I also have comments on the heat hp thread. But I don't have any more time at moment to properly explain so you will just have to wait till I do have some idle computer time.
BTW, don't bug Charlie, he's great but has no time for silliness and stupidity.
Better to just use one of his venders, you will be better served that way, trust me.
Have a great day,
Viking
Viking, tell me more of these hats. the rotors look to be brembo and im not missing any hardware except for a couple (2) of the small allen head bolts.... all the bobbens are there . what about the the anti vibration square washers that i see on brembos.... are they needed or desired, or is that a hat design component?
If i was to replace them, I think i was told they are a 965T upgrade package that is for the smaller brembo calipers like i use. (ST40 style)..... so they are a true 13" rotor.
i would think that brembo or coleman would make replacement friction rings... but i would first like to know who made these hats.
thanks,
Mk
If i was to replace them, I think i was told they are a 965T upgrade package that is for the smaller brembo calipers like i use. (ST40 style)..... so they are a true 13" rotor.
i would think that brembo or coleman would make replacement friction rings... but i would first like to know who made these hats.
thanks,
Mk