winders

Jack, instead of looking ay MPH at some point or multiple points on the track, look at the time it takes to get from corner entry to corner exit. Looking at individual points on the track for MPH can lead to conclusions that could prove inaccurate.

kurt M

...unless the point is to look at the individual.


pick and choose the right data for a desired result is the foundation of the 3 types of stats format.

KaiB

Fun stuff Jack!

I'm also surprised (actually very surprised) that your corner speeds are that close to those of a well driven Cup.

Not at all surprised that the average Joe in a Cup would be slower through the twisties.

ProCoach

Not surprised by either. My information supports this corner speed parity.

Scott is right in that the difference is the distance delta to get there and to get out is the difference.

Jack, you need more juice!

Veloce Raptor

I am genuinely impressed at your preformance on NT01's, Jack!

KaiB

Would you go all hypothetical for a moment Peter? (Let's pick on me...)

Were I as familiar with a Cup as I am with my little car, and were we to gather data on the same corner, where and why would I gain advantage with the Cup (until the throttle goes flat, so let's not pick a turn in and go flat corner).

ProCoach

Familiar and comfortable are two different things, Kai.

Jack is not only intimately familiar with his car, perhaps more so than the Cup driver, but also is supremely comfortable and, most importantly, CONFIDENT that he can ask more of the car than he thinks it can give, and still fix it if something goes wrong.

The benefit of the newer cars is not necessarily a higher vMin (which is why Jack's isolated data points work), it's not. It's the lesser amount of time spent there...

It's that the later cars are more stable (generally in transition) and inspire more confidence so that the "V" shape of the speed delta is crisper, cleaner and more efficient than the old cars.

This stability, in my opinion and experience, infuses a comfortable and confident driver's subconscious with the desire and resolve to "ask more" from the platform they're driving.

It's a neat science, but not all cut and dried, as the examination of isolated vMin points show.

Hat's off to Jack! He's driving the hell out of his car!

You have to remember, my primary focus is "old" cars. So I have LOTS of data to support what Jack has shown...

Veloce Raptor

I will add that many drivers on full slicks are neither aware of nor confident of the full amount of mechanical grip available to them. Whereas it is much easier to be comfortable approaching & exceeding maximum grip with NT01's.

J richard

Could not agree more. Frustratingly so sometimes. Moving back and forth between the two platforms there are spots on the same track where the speeds are so similar even though the cup on slicks should by all rights be obliterating the Boxster on R6...the result of softer suspension with much more seat time in the "zone" builds the confidence with the car at the edge of adhesion. The delta is huge in mid corner speed. Something I'm working hard at...

KaiB

Interesting, and not unexpected that the terms "confidence" and "comfortable" pop up immediately.

So the answer to my question seems to be, given the above, is less time in transition - this is where the more capable modern car shines?

(I also know that THIS is where I can get time, but of course where my car is most nervous)

Matt Romanowski

Here's another data point. Red is my 914 on 225/45-R15 Nitto NT-01 and red is a Grand Am spec 996. Notice I'm quicker in turn 1. The biggest difference in any other corner is about 6 mph. Lap time difference was about 8.2 seconds.

For me, a well drive Cup kills me anywhere they want. An ok driven car will have me apex out and rarely from turn in to apex. At the apex I'm usually pretty close to their speed if not a hair quicker.

tonypai

Jack

What does your car weigh vs the cup car?

Just curious.

Thanks

paradisenb

I guess you didn't read the thread, tonypai. First post "If that's the case, then it's a 390-hp car (to my 272 hp) that weighs 2500 pounds wet (to my 2420 pounds)."

I wish I understood how to read the squiggly lines better. Need more time with Peter. Last night was a good start.

I have noticed that a large variety of cars corner at similar speeds. I suspect driver input/commitment from accel it brake and brake to accel make a huge difference in lap times. (those sharp Vs and straight lines Peter teaches) Also, HP of car being used for accel increases distance traveled - is that correct?

KaiB

I wonder, Matt, if the corner velocity difference wouldn't be far closer if you had the same tire the Cup had.

Matt Romanowski

It would be closer, but not the same. They have a lot more tire width, better camber curves, and a better initial setup. Typically if I'm near a Cup in the corners, I'm right on the edge of spinning into oblivion.