Shortage of instructors at our De
10-23-2013, 09:38 PM
#31
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Thanks
Make no bones about it, last two years I have shown up with a car that simply didnt last a SESSION and I stuck it out till my students went home and all of them had a great experience. I will be damned if I have another DE chair look down their nose at me and expect me to kiss their ring. To many options...
10-23-2013, 11:13 PM
#32
Drifting
10-23-2013, 11:40 PM
#33
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Instructors that took two students were refunded. So they were free.. I had an incident at Daytona a couple of weeks ago so my car was not ready, but went anyway to help since there was a shortage.. Had a couple of great students and enjoyed myself, but felt like they were shorted by me not being able to dedicate more time to them..
10-24-2013, 12:54 AM
#34
I'm shocked! PCA San Diego Region charges full price to their instructors for autocross and full price for DE/TT minus $25. Honestly, $25 discount off several hundred dollars track fee! Shame 
10-24-2013, 01:12 AM
#35
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In my region we pay $100 extra for an instructor and we pay $30 for the social dinner.
I've never hesitated to pony up for either fee. I think one of the instructors told me they get to drive for free.
I've never hesitated to pony up for either fee. I think one of the instructors told me they get to drive for free.
10-24-2013, 06:21 AM
#36
Alex, that is because I am referring to your region as being MY region. You guys run a great program and are the reason I am an instructor with PCA.
First Settlers all the way!
Mike Kelly
First Settlers all the way!
Mike Kelly
That says a lot about your commitment which I am sure was greatly appreciated by the CTI and DE Chair. For the FSR region, we accept the national training as adequate. If I cannot tell the full experience from ms reg, I might ask for a CTI verification if the instructor is unknown to us. It is always a balancing act between being safe and being accommodating. I think our region does a good job on both accounts, but, of course, I am a tad biased!
10-24-2013, 09:58 AM
#37
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2 students + driving = everyone is shortchanged
In a pinch to help the club, absolutely
I like to spend considerable time outside the car with a student. If they are really new and don't know anyone in the club, I make sure to spend lots of time with them out of the car to make them feel like part of the group, can't do that with two and drive
In a pinch to help the club, absolutely
I like to spend considerable time outside the car with a student. If they are really new and don't know anyone in the club, I make sure to spend lots of time with them out of the car to make them feel like part of the group, can't do that with two and drive
10-24-2013, 10:47 AM
#38
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In my region students are put on a wait list until there is enough instructors to maintain a 1 to 1 ratio with an extra few instructors in reserve since often an instructor or two can't make it at the last minute for one reason or another. This helps ensure the students as well as the entire instructor core have some quality time both on and off the track. Even with all the above though we did have some challenges to attract enough instructors for our 5 DE events from May to September.
10-24-2013, 10:54 AM
#39
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In my region students are put on a wait list until there is enough instructors to maintain a 1 to 1 ratio with an extra few instructors in reserve since often an instructor or two can't make it at the last minute for one reason or another. This helps ensure the students as well as the entire instructor core have some quality time both on and off the track. Even with all the above though we did have some challenges to attract enough instructors for our 5 DE events from May to September.
10-24-2013, 12:08 PM
#40
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As a learning solo/student, I would agree with others that there needs to be better organization for instructors and students. I remember one of my first track events and there was 3 instructors for 10+ students! I never signed up for another event with them again. I felt my life and my car were at too great of a risk.
I don't work for Chin, but running with many groups in Florida, I think they are the best group so far because:
1) They only have 3 run groups which gives the maximum amount of track time.
2) They rent out great tracks (large enough to have many cars on the track at once, etc...)
3) They always seem to have enough instructors..... good instructors
4) They only cater to DE people. No racers going out in green and blue group to practice and cause accidents to close the session and bump all DE groups so that racers can race......
Ultimately, I think it comes down to track time. Students and instructors alike don't mind paying the price for a good track and plenty of track time. I think the PCA 5 run group thing kills the amount of track time for everyone (less overall time and only 20-25 mins per session). And if clubs are only going to have 1 DE a year, have a Friday solo/adv/inst only day. I recently went to something like this at NJMP and because I ran so much on Friday, by the time Sunday came around, I was almost glad I had less track time..... I would go again if I wasn't so far away.
I don't work for Chin, but running with many groups in Florida, I think they are the best group so far because:
1) They only have 3 run groups which gives the maximum amount of track time.
2) They rent out great tracks (large enough to have many cars on the track at once, etc...)
3) They always seem to have enough instructors..... good instructors
4) They only cater to DE people. No racers going out in green and blue group to practice and cause accidents to close the session and bump all DE groups so that racers can race......
Ultimately, I think it comes down to track time. Students and instructors alike don't mind paying the price for a good track and plenty of track time. I think the PCA 5 run group thing kills the amount of track time for everyone (less overall time and only 20-25 mins per session). And if clubs are only going to have 1 DE a year, have a Friday solo/adv/inst only day. I recently went to something like this at NJMP and because I ran so much on Friday, by the time Sunday came around, I was almost glad I had less track time..... I would go again if I wasn't so far away.
10-24-2013, 12:13 PM
#41
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That problem is not going away...
10-24-2013, 12:50 PM
#42
Race Car
I don't work for Chin, but running with many groups in Florida, I think they are the best group so far because:
4) They only cater to DE people. No racers going out in green and blue group to practice and cause accidents to close the session and bump all DE groups so that racers can race......
anyway, the speed differential was HUGE, so I ran in a lower group to stay out of their way.
I like Chin, if I'm not instructing. but its a lot of work if you are instructing.
-ymmv
10-24-2013, 01:20 PM
#43
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I haven't run with Chin in several years, but last time out, there were a lot of vipers, vettes and some older NASCAR race cars running with them. - (pro or semi pro team w/ rigs and pit crew...) it sure looked like a test day.
anyway, the speed differential was HUGE, so I ran in a lower group to stay out of their way.
I like Chin, if I'm not instructing. but its a lot of work if you are instructing.
-ymmv
anyway, the speed differential was HUGE, so I ran in a lower group to stay out of their way.
I like Chin, if I'm not instructing. but its a lot of work if you are instructing.
-ymmv
Chin with 3 run groups keeps the instructors running if they want track time as well. But at least Instructors can run in either of the faster groups and I find the Red group with less traffic as it goes out right after the Novice group so most instructors don't make it out at the beginning or run the blue group instead.
PCA DE is a Dedication and Marque event and not just about track time. FCA is a good group of people though I have only AutoX'd with them.
Peter
10-24-2013, 01:42 PM
#44
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Even at RRR there are costs that have to be covered… Yes the track rental fee is lower than other tracks, but the rest of the costs are the relatively the same when we run DE events at other tracks. I am in the process of finalizing our regions track rental agreement with RRR for 2014 so the cost line items are pretty fresh in my mind such as:
• Track Rental Fee
• Insurance (cost has thresholds and goes up based on exceeding each next threshold not much but that there is additional costs)
• Advanced Life Support Ambulance -one is mandatory
• Fire and Rescue Truck
• Wrecker/flatbed
• Corner Workers - we usually have 7 at RRR
• Pit Out worker
• Control Worker (S/F line)
• Gate worker for Friday from when track open for us until 10 pm
• Gate worker for Saturday from cold track to 10 pm
• Cost of T-shirts
• Cost of supplies (printing, bands, etc.)
• Cost of social activities (pizza/beer social Friday night and Saturday night dinner most events)
We run 5 run groups, like many regions:
o Green (Novice Instructed)
o Blue (Intermediate Instructed) & Blue Solo (Intermediate Solo)
o White (Solo)
o Orange (Instructor Group 2 / Adv. Solo)
o Red (Instructor Group 1 / Adv. Solo)
We usually don’t put more than 30 cars on track at RRR in any run group, which is less that the PCA rules allow. We also try to limit the green and blue run groups to 20-25. If we get our max for green and blue, then we would need 50 instructors to not have anyone had to take 2. That would leave 10 additional spots open for advance solo drivers to be added to either our Red or Orange run groups. If we did not charge instructors, we would not be able to even cover costs and even if we maxed out the solo white run group and did have the 10 advanced solo spots filled, we would have a loss at every event. Some regions are fortunate and have “sponsorship” by local P-car dealers, shops, etc….our region is not that fortunate.
It is not as easy as saying let’s just not charge instructors, give them more on track time, only one student, etc. I sure wish it were… There is only so much we can cut such as social activities or t-shirts.
I, like many event organizers have lots of go-to instructors that don’t mind taking 2 students on at a time. There are times when we do exhaust that list and have to assign other instructors 2 students but we try our best to not have to do that.
• Track Rental Fee
• Insurance (cost has thresholds and goes up based on exceeding each next threshold not much but that there is additional costs)
• Advanced Life Support Ambulance -one is mandatory
• Fire and Rescue Truck
• Wrecker/flatbed
• Corner Workers - we usually have 7 at RRR
• Pit Out worker
• Control Worker (S/F line)
• Gate worker for Friday from when track open for us until 10 pm
• Gate worker for Saturday from cold track to 10 pm
• Cost of T-shirts
• Cost of supplies (printing, bands, etc.)
• Cost of social activities (pizza/beer social Friday night and Saturday night dinner most events)
We run 5 run groups, like many regions:
o Green (Novice Instructed)
o Blue (Intermediate Instructed) & Blue Solo (Intermediate Solo)
o White (Solo)
o Orange (Instructor Group 2 / Adv. Solo)
o Red (Instructor Group 1 / Adv. Solo)
We usually don’t put more than 30 cars on track at RRR in any run group, which is less that the PCA rules allow. We also try to limit the green and blue run groups to 20-25. If we get our max for green and blue, then we would need 50 instructors to not have anyone had to take 2. That would leave 10 additional spots open for advance solo drivers to be added to either our Red or Orange run groups. If we did not charge instructors, we would not be able to even cover costs and even if we maxed out the solo white run group and did have the 10 advanced solo spots filled, we would have a loss at every event. Some regions are fortunate and have “sponsorship” by local P-car dealers, shops, etc….our region is not that fortunate.
It is not as easy as saying let’s just not charge instructors, give them more on track time, only one student, etc. I sure wish it were… There is only so much we can cut such as social activities or t-shirts.
I, like many event organizers have lots of go-to instructors that don’t mind taking 2 students on at a time. There are times when we do exhaust that list and have to assign other instructors 2 students but we try our best to not have to do that.
I looked at your website and it says about $200 a weekend. That is a bargain compared to what I've seen. Here in Texas, students pay $325 and instructors pay nothing. Everyone from green to the advanced run group gets instruction during the weekend so the students essentially pay for their instruction. Makes a lot of sense to me and I rarely hear people even mention the entry costs. We also don't do t-shirts.
We also have a bigger track to work with (TWS, 2.9 miles) and can get 30+ cars in green/blue on it without a problem.
Just some food for thought.
10-24-2013, 01:51 PM
#45
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I instruct with Chin/Sebring events. They run a fantastic operation, and somehow are able to pay all the expenses/make a profit while still not charging the instructors. Additionally I've found that their instructor quota often fills rapidly such that if I wait too late to register, I may be paying to attend the track day.
My perspective may be slanted by the fact that I only participate at Sebring. Perhaps it is harder to attract instructors at other tracks? My point of the post is to hold Chin up as an example to other groups as to how to attract instructors.
Nothing against PCA, as I've also had positive experiences instructing with Suncoast/Goldcoast at Sebring. However it always bothers me that Chin can comp the instructors and PCA can't do the same. Compounding this issue is the fact that Chin is a private for profit entity yet still can comp instructors.
My perspective may be slanted by the fact that I only participate at Sebring. Perhaps it is harder to attract instructors at other tracks? My point of the post is to hold Chin up as an example to other groups as to how to attract instructors.
Nothing against PCA, as I've also had positive experiences instructing with Suncoast/Goldcoast at Sebring. However it always bothers me that Chin can comp the instructors and PCA can't do the same. Compounding this issue is the fact that Chin is a private for profit entity yet still can comp instructors.