Shortage of instructors at our De
10-23-2013, 06:09 PM
#16
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10-23-2013, 06:11 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Mike
2 students and having to pay is brutal.
Instructors should be free with only 1 student and add the $50 to student entry to balance the cost and only 1 inst student run group. The last Sebring NASA event was short on instructors also and I instructed, would rather just pay and run but they needed the help. Also RR is not the most popular track and this is more of a problem attracting instructors.
Peter
2 students and having to pay is brutal.
Instructors should be free with only 1 student and add the $50 to student entry to balance the cost and only 1 inst student run group. The last Sebring NASA event was short on instructors also and I instructed, would rather just pay and run but they needed the help. Also RR is not the most popular track and this is more of a problem attracting instructors. Peter
10-23-2013, 06:15 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
To be serious for a moment (sorry), I wouldn't routinely agree to take 2 students. In a pinch, sure... but I wouldn't pay to work. Generally students are better served (fatigue, attention, debrief, time) with a 1:1 ratio.
Agree with the CHIN comment, they run a good show.
10-23-2013, 06:27 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I would say that I've had 2 students the majority of the times I have instructed although I noticed a trend toward one student as people were complaining.
I don't know the financial implications or the importance of satisfying the application of ALL students in PCA, but I don't think it's a great idea to carry two students unless you are not driving yourself (i.e. showing up just for instructing and drinking). I found that when I had two students, wanted to drive my own car, and keep that car ready for my wife to drive that it was too hectic. When a vacay day becomes a work day, I have to reconsider what I'm doing.
I do wonder about the Sean Edwards fatality but my guess is only a few instructors will leave the ranks because of it.
As stated above, maybe keeping students on waitlists until instructors sign up should be the norm. Again, I have no knowledge of the dynamics at play within PCA and thus have no idea what the impact would be of limiting student numbers.
I don't know the financial implications or the importance of satisfying the application of ALL students in PCA, but I don't think it's a great idea to carry two students unless you are not driving yourself (i.e. showing up just for instructing and drinking). I found that when I had two students, wanted to drive my own car, and keep that car ready for my wife to drive that it was too hectic. When a vacay day becomes a work day, I have to reconsider what I'm doing.
I do wonder about the Sean Edwards fatality but my guess is only a few instructors will leave the ranks because of it.
As stated above, maybe keeping students on waitlists until instructors sign up should be the norm. Again, I have no knowledge of the dynamics at play within PCA and thus have no idea what the impact would be of limiting student numbers.
10-23-2013, 06:30 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Wow, you actually charge instructors to run at Roebling, which is one of the least expensive tracks in the US to rent. And then give them 2 students?
I would say your question answers itself...
I would say your question answers itself...
10-23-2013, 06:46 PM
#21
NASA Racer
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2 students + driving = everyone is shortchanged
In a pinch to help the club, absolutely
I like to spend considerable time outside the car with a student. If they are really new and don't know anyone in the club, I make sure to spend lots of time with them out of the car to make them feel like part of the group, can't do that with two and drive
In a pinch to help the club, absolutely
I like to spend considerable time outside the car with a student. If they are really new and don't know anyone in the club, I make sure to spend lots of time with them out of the car to make them feel like part of the group, can't do that with two and drive
10-23-2013, 06:54 PM
#22
Instructor
• Track Rental Fee
• Insurance (cost has thresholds and goes up based on exceeding each next threshold not much but that there is additional costs)
• Advanced Life Support Ambulance -one is mandatory
• Fire and Rescue Truck
• Wrecker/flatbed
• Corner Workers - we usually have 7 at RRR
• Pit Out worker
• Control Worker (S/F line)
• Gate worker for Friday from when track open for us until 10 pm
• Gate worker for Saturday from cold track to 10 pm
• Cost of T-shirts
• Cost of supplies (printing, bands, etc.)
• Cost of social activities (pizza/beer social Friday night and Saturday night dinner most events)
We run 5 run groups, like many regions:
o Green (Novice Instructed)
o Blue (Intermediate Instructed) & Blue Solo (Intermediate Solo)
o White (Solo)
o Orange (Instructor Group 2 / Adv. Solo)
o Red (Instructor Group 1 / Adv. Solo)
We usually don’t put more than 30 cars on track at RRR in any run group, which is less that the PCA rules allow. We also try to limit the green and blue run groups to 20-25. If we get our max for green and blue, then we would need 50 instructors to not have anyone had to take 2. That would leave 10 additional spots open for advance solo drivers to be added to either our Red or Orange run groups. If we did not charge instructors, we would not be able to even cover costs and even if we maxed out the solo white run group and did have the 10 advanced solo spots filled, we would have a loss at every event. Some regions are fortunate and have “sponsorship” by local P-car dealers, shops, etc….our region is not that fortunate.
It is not as easy as saying let’s just not charge instructors, give them more on track time, only one student, etc. I sure wish it were… There is only so much we can cut such as social activities or t-shirts.
I, like many event organizers have lots of go-to instructors that don’t mind taking 2 students on at a time. There are times when we do exhaust that list and have to assign other instructors 2 students but we try our best to not have to do that.
10-23-2013, 06:54 PM
#23
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Let's also add that assigning two students creates an incentive/bias to solo a student sooner than they may be ready to ease the burden. Overworking instructors is never the answer. If you have too many students, increase their registration fee, reduce instructor registration fee (or make it zero), and guarantee only one student per instructor to balance things out.
10-23-2013, 07:23 PM
#24
The Penguin King
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It is a challenge sometimes to keep the instructor corp full. We seem to have a slow but steady attrition rate. People just burn out, or decide to devote all their time to racing, or move on to other stuff, or family calls,...
All that said, the first thing I would do is drop the charge for instructors. I don't instruct for free track time, but instructing is hard work, and if I had to pay to instruct, I'd just pay the full fare and go drive.
All that said, the first thing I would do is drop the charge for instructors. I don't instruct for free track time, but instructing is hard work, and if I had to pay to instruct, I'd just pay the full fare and go drive.
10-23-2013, 08:10 PM
#25
I don't know your region but I do know that one of the regions closest to me wanted me to go thru THEIR instructors clinic right after I had gone through Pete Tremper's clinic with the region I claim as my home now. They were so insisting that their level of instructing was superior to anything else I was doing within and outside the region in question that I was completely turned off by them and to this day don't bother attending their events. I have been instructing for over 4 years now and constantly get requests from former students, and this year I have been requested as a coach for racers at a few venues. I have been fortunate enough to have had good talent to work with to date.
Bottom line is students and instructors alike need to be appreciated. There are simply to many options for instructors and GOOD instructors apparently are hard to come by. Quite honestly, It is a risk for me or anyone else to get in your car and give you the benefit of our wisdom. DE programs need to figure out how to show their instructor corp love or their programs will die on the vine. If a region doesn't show their appreciation and treats me as if I am a second class citizen, then guess what? I and other instructors have OPTIONS...
Sorry for the rant to the original poster, but those of you who are DE chairs and reading this, think about what I just typed. If Pete Tremper teaches me in ANY of our regions, it should count in ALL of our regions. If not, then why the hell have a National DE chair and NATIONAL DE Instructors program.
Mike Kelly
Bottom line is students and instructors alike need to be appreciated. There are simply to many options for instructors and GOOD instructors apparently are hard to come by. Quite honestly, It is a risk for me or anyone else to get in your car and give you the benefit of our wisdom. DE programs need to figure out how to show their instructor corp love or their programs will die on the vine. If a region doesn't show their appreciation and treats me as if I am a second class citizen, then guess what? I and other instructors have OPTIONS...
Sorry for the rant to the original poster, but those of you who are DE chairs and reading this, think about what I just typed. If Pete Tremper teaches me in ANY of our regions, it should count in ALL of our regions. If not, then why the hell have a National DE chair and NATIONAL DE Instructors program.
Mike Kelly
10-23-2013, 08:22 PM
#26
I'm in....
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I attended the National school at RRR with the FCR. It is the only time I ever instructed with them but that's because I moved to PA later that year. They seem like a nice enough bunch. 
10-23-2013, 08:34 PM
#28
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I don't know your region but I do know that one of the regions closest to me wanted me to go thru THEIR instructors clinic right after I had gone through Pete Tremper's clinic with the region I claim as my home now. They were so insisting that their level of instructing was superior to anything else I was doing within and outside the region in question that I was completely turned off by them and to this day don't bother attending their events. I have been instructing for over 4 years now and constantly get requests from former students, and this year I have been requested as a coach for racers at a few venues. I have been fortunate enough to have had good talent to work with to date.
Bottom line is students and instructors alike need to be appreciated. There are simply to many options for instructors and GOOD instructors apparently are hard to come by. Quite honestly, It is a risk for me or anyone else to get in your car and give you the benefit of our wisdom. DE programs need to figure out how to show their instructor corp love or their programs will die on the vine. If a region doesn't show their appreciation and treats me as if I am a second class citizen, then guess what? I and other instructors have OPTIONS...
Bottom line is students and instructors alike need to be appreciated. There are simply to many options for instructors and GOOD instructors apparently are hard to come by. Quite honestly, It is a risk for me or anyone else to get in your car and give you the benefit of our wisdom. DE programs need to figure out how to show their instructor corp love or their programs will die on the vine. If a region doesn't show their appreciation and treats me as if I am a second class citizen, then guess what? I and other instructors have OPTIONS...
10-23-2013, 08:53 PM
#29
Make no bones about it, last two years I have shown up with a car that simply didnt last a SESSION and I stuck it out till my students went home and all of them had a great experience. I will be damned if I have another DE chair look down their nose at me and expect me to kiss their ring. To many options...
10-23-2013, 09:34 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Even at RRR there are costs that have to be covered… Yes the track rental fee is lower than other tracks, but the rest of the costs are the relatively the same when we run DE events at other tracks. I am in the process of finalizing our regions track rental agreement with RRR for 2014 so the cost line items are pretty fresh in my mind such as:
• Track Rental Fee
• Insurance (cost has thresholds and goes up based on exceeding each next threshold not much but that there is additional costs)
• Advanced Life Support Ambulance -one is mandatory
• Fire and Rescue Truck
• Wrecker/flatbed
• Corner Workers - we usually have 7 at RRR
• Pit Out worker
• Control Worker (S/F line)
• Gate worker for Friday from when track open for us until 10 pm
• Gate worker for Saturday from cold track to 10 pm
• Cost of T-shirts
• Cost of supplies (printing, bands, etc.)
• Cost of social activities (pizza/beer social Friday night and Saturday night dinner most events)
We run 5 run groups, like many regions:
o Green (Novice Instructed)
o Blue (Intermediate Instructed) & Blue Solo (Intermediate Solo)
o White (Solo)
o Orange (Instructor Group 2 / Adv. Solo)
o Red (Instructor Group 1 / Adv. Solo)
We usually don’t put more than 30 cars on track at RRR in any run group, which is less that the PCA rules allow. We also try to limit the green and blue run groups to 20-25. If we get our max for green and blue, then we would need 50 instructors to not have anyone had to take 2. That would leave 10 additional spots open for advance solo drivers to be added to either our Red or Orange run groups. If we did not charge instructors, we would not be able to even cover costs and even if we maxed out the solo white run group and did have the 10 advanced solo spots filled, we would have a loss at every event. Some regions are fortunate and have “sponsorship” by local P-car dealers, shops, etc….our region is not that fortunate.
It is not as easy as saying let’s just not charge instructors, give them more on track time, only one student, etc. I sure wish it were… There is only so much we can cut such as social activities or t-shirts.
I, like many event organizers have lots of go-to instructors that don’t mind taking 2 students on at a time. There are times when we do exhaust that list and have to assign other instructors 2 students but we try our best to not have to do that.
• Track Rental Fee
• Insurance (cost has thresholds and goes up based on exceeding each next threshold not much but that there is additional costs)
• Advanced Life Support Ambulance -one is mandatory
• Fire and Rescue Truck
• Wrecker/flatbed
• Corner Workers - we usually have 7 at RRR
• Pit Out worker
• Control Worker (S/F line)
• Gate worker for Friday from when track open for us until 10 pm
• Gate worker for Saturday from cold track to 10 pm
• Cost of T-shirts
• Cost of supplies (printing, bands, etc.)
• Cost of social activities (pizza/beer social Friday night and Saturday night dinner most events)
We run 5 run groups, like many regions:
o Green (Novice Instructed)
o Blue (Intermediate Instructed) & Blue Solo (Intermediate Solo)
o White (Solo)
o Orange (Instructor Group 2 / Adv. Solo)
o Red (Instructor Group 1 / Adv. Solo)
We usually don’t put more than 30 cars on track at RRR in any run group, which is less that the PCA rules allow. We also try to limit the green and blue run groups to 20-25. If we get our max for green and blue, then we would need 50 instructors to not have anyone had to take 2. That would leave 10 additional spots open for advance solo drivers to be added to either our Red or Orange run groups. If we did not charge instructors, we would not be able to even cover costs and even if we maxed out the solo white run group and did have the 10 advanced solo spots filled, we would have a loss at every event. Some regions are fortunate and have “sponsorship” by local P-car dealers, shops, etc….our region is not that fortunate.
It is not as easy as saying let’s just not charge instructors, give them more on track time, only one student, etc. I sure wish it were… There is only so much we can cut such as social activities or t-shirts.
I, like many event organizers have lots of go-to instructors that don’t mind taking 2 students on at a time. There are times when we do exhaust that list and have to assign other instructors 2 students but we try our best to not have to do that.
I instructed with another PCA club recently at Sebring and they allowed us to run in any run group or every run group as long as we abide by the rules of that run group which gave us as much track time as we wanted. They have changed their program quiet a bit and are not lacking in instructors..
Can this a RRR thing?