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2013 Grand Prix of Singapore

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by uffrank
Hamilton.
Sweet !!! I love the predictions 2 days after the race has concluded. Hard to argue with Hamilton though.

Makes me long of the days when A Wayne would get mad at Ray S for picking his WDC for that particular year 6 races into the new season.
Old 09-26-2013, 10:14 PM
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Default It wasnt the wind tunnel ....

It was the tyres ....

Thursday 26 September at 07:35 : Sep.26 (GMM) Force India has hit out at the mid-season tyre specification change that, according to technical director Andy Green, was a terminal setback for the Silverstone based team.

And, as Ferrari now turns its full attention to the 2014 challenge, the Italian team has also lamented the move from the original steel-belted 2013 Pirelli tyres to last year's kevlar specification.

The move was ostensibly made on safety grounds, but Ferrari and Force India argue that it hurt their performance badly.

"We started the season in a good way," said Fernando Alonso. "We won in China, we won in Spain and then we seemed to lose a bit of the performance, especially when the 2012 Pirelli tyres came back.

"That was probably the point in the championship (where) we said 'bye-bye'," the Spaniard revealed.


Force India's is a similar story, but perhaps even more dramatic.

"Initially the others couldn't do what Ferrari and us were able to," technical boss Green told Auto Motor und Sport.

"But Red Bull and Mercedes did a really good job of lobbying. That's just unfair.

"They had the same opportunity as we did to build a car for the 2013 tyres -- if they didn't do a good job, that's their problem. But they were rewarded for it instead," he insisted.

The change from steel to kevlar internals may seen academic, but it had a big impact on aerodynamics, Green explained.

"It gave us bad oversteer in fast corners," he said.

"The aerodynamics at the rear of the car no longer worked because the tyre deformed less."

Green said Force India then "stopped developing the car and could only react" to the problem "with different ride heights and suspension settings".
Old 09-28-2013, 05:12 PM
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Default Button on Kimi and DV next season

Jenson Button says Ferrari may have inadvertently given a boost to their rivals by re-hiring former World Champion Kimi Raikkonen to join current lead driver Fernando Alonso.

Button, speaking ahead of Sunday's Singapore Grand Prix, said the decision was "great for us" and predicted difficulties at Ferrari as next season progresses.

The 33-year-old Briton said rather than being a dream pairing, two-time World Champion Alonso and "Iceman" Raikkonen, who won the 2007 title with Ferrari, may find it difficult to cooperate.

"We'll definitely be watching their situation," Button told AFP.

"Ferrari for many years has had two drivers in the team that have been very quick but when it gets to a point in the season, it seems one driver helps the other driver.

"I don't think that will be the case with Kimi and Fernando - I don't think they'll be trying to help the other driver. A guy that's achieved what they've achieved will not want to be helping out his team-mate."

Seven-time World Champion Michael Schumacher has warned that the partnership could be "explosive", while Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko reportedly said the strong-willed duo could tear the team apart.

Button said Alonso would probably leverage his long personal history within the team to keep staff on his side when Raikkonen arrives from Lotus.

"I'm sure when Kimi walks in that door, Fernando will start talking Italian to all the team personnel. That's exactly what I would do," he said at an ExxonMobil promotional event.

"It's going to be an interesting atmosphere and relationship between those two, especially if Kimi is as quick as Fernando. If Kimi starts out-qualifying Fernando, that will be a big one."
Old 09-28-2013, 08:43 PM
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Love the orgy Kimi going to Ferrari has caused on this forum. Each hater pleasuring the other off, helping them all have a jolly good time.
Enjoy guys...
Old 09-28-2013, 10:04 PM
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Raj,
Just posting F1 news relevant to the thread (comments made around the Singapore GP)

Equilibrium needs to be established.
For every DV BallWasher, there needs to be a DV Hater.

Besides, now that Sir A.Wayne has rejoined the Alonso Athletic Supporters, there should be more "fair and balanced" DV/Ferrari posts.

Relax, I picked Alonso to win the WDC and I am sticking to it.
Webber will help his friend by all means possible, Vettel will suffer mutipe DNF's and DV will claim the 2013 WDC.

And if not, the new and improved Ferrari wind tunnel will strike fear in the heart of Newey in 2014, prompting him to resign from RBR.
Old 09-29-2013, 11:40 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by ltc
Jenson Button says Ferrari may have inadvertently given a boost to their rivals by re-hiring former World Champion Kimi Raikkonen to join current lead driver Fernando Alonso.

Button, speaking ahead of Sunday's Singapore Grand Prix, said the decision was "great for us" and predicted difficulties at Ferrari as next season progresses.

The 33-year-old Briton said rather than being a dream pairing, two-time World Champion Alonso and "Iceman" Raikkonen, who won the 2007 title with Ferrari, may find it difficult to cooperate.

"We'll definitely be watching their situation," Button told AFP.

"Ferrari for many years has had two drivers in the team that have been very quick but when it gets to a point in the season, it seems one driver helps the other driver.

"I don't think that will be the case with Kimi and Fernando - I don't think they'll be trying to help the other driver. A guy that's achieved what they've achieved will not want to be helping out his team-mate."

Seven-time World Champion Michael Schumacher has warned that the partnership could be "explosive", while Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko reportedly said the strong-willed duo could tear the team apart.

Button said Alonso would probably leverage his long personal history within the team to keep staff on his side when Raikkonen arrives from Lotus.

"I'm sure when Kimi walks in that door, Fernando will start talking Italian to all the team personnel. That's exactly what I would do," he said at an ExxonMobil promotional event.

"It's going to be an interesting atmosphere and relationship between those two, especially if Kimi is as quick as Fernando. If Kimi starts out-qualifying Fernando, that will be a big one."
I disagree with Button on two accounts: First, Kimi has a history with Ferrari as well which resulted in their last WCC and WDC something Alonso has FAILED to achieve. Alonso has spoken to the team in Italian on the world feed calling them stupid... I'm sure that was appreciated at Maranello.

Second, Kimi has shown that he is willing to help his teammate when he is mathematically eliminated from contention as he did when helping out Massa in 2008. He's not Mark Webber who will block his teammate when the teammate needs points at the end of the season.
Old 09-30-2013, 06:06 PM
  #52  
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Well ,
I was having Lunch with Mr Minardi and a story broke out ....


http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/vi...f_Vettels_RB9/

Former Formula 1 team-owner Giancarlo Minardi has questioned why Sebastian Vettel was so dominant in Singapore and just how he managed to outpace team-mate Mark Webber in a supposedly identical car.

The German, who won the race with ease, was often two seconds faster than any other car during the race - not on just a few laps, but consistently. Minardi, who was present at the race, described what he witnessed and made a comment relating to traction control which will surely fire up the conspiracy theorists. "From my suite, I chose some mainstays as a reference point in order to monitor and compare the drivers' way of driving," he wrote in a column for Pitpass. "I was impressed by Vettel's neat way of driving on that stretch of the track. He was able to drive all that stretch without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals (also his team-mate). "On the same stretch, Sebastian was able to [accelerate] 50 metres before any other driver, Webber included. The thing that surprised me the most was the engine's output sound. Besides speeding up 50m before any other driver, the Renault engine of the German's car grinded like no other French engines on track, neither like Mark's. "That sound was similar to the sound made by the engine when the traction control system got into action in the past seasons," he added. The 66-year-old can understand a small advantage, but says answers are needed as to how the three-time champion could pull away from his rivals by such a large amount each and every lap. "It's not my intention to devalue Sebastian Vettel, who always manages his Red Bull the best way and I don't want even to jab at anyone, I just want to tell what I personally saw and heard during that three-day-event. "According to my experience, I think that a 2.5 second advantage each lap is really too much. It's like a three-generation development gap, it's a huge gap. "There are some aspects, Vettel's very neat way of driving, Vettel's speed-up 50m before the other drivers, the abnormal sound of the Renault engine and Vettel's more than 2 second advantage over his rivals that make me think and I would like to have some answers." - See more at:


http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/displa....RtNFQFzd.dpuf


Looks Like Faux3 has Faux7's steering wheel from his Benetton days, you know , the one with the xtra button ...
Old 09-30-2013, 06:11 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by ltc
Speaking of forced retirement .. welcome back.

Which one of the Alonso Athletic Supporters / Ferrari Wind Tunnel Booster Club members hit speed dial and asked you to help out?

Just to bring you up to speed since you last graced the F1 discussions...

Alonso has failed to win a WDC driving for Ferrari, but has found new and creative ways to finish 2nd.

Another German has taken Schumacher's place atop Formula 1

That's about it.
You've got your work cut out for you ... so let the Spin Begin


Actually it was not forced retirement, My sabbatical was voluntary and my current plan , unlike Schumacher , Is to win another WDC ............
Old 09-30-2013, 06:18 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Well ,
I was having Lunch with Mr Minardi and a story broke out ....

Looks Like Faux3 has Faux7's steering wheel from his Benetton days, you know , the one with the xtra button ...
The ECU is a spec McLaren part. James Allen covers this well. Perhaps RBR and Vettel are simply outperforming everyone else?

One of the most commented aspects of the Singapore Grand Prix was the astonishing speed of Sebastian Vettel, particularly in the opening laps and the initial laps after the safety car. There have been many questions about how this was achieved and some interesting observations, such as Giancarlo Minardi’s comments about a strange sound coming from Vettel’s exhaust in these phases.

Here with the input of JA on F1 technical adviser Mark Gillan, former Williams F1 team chief operations engineer, is our analysis of Vettel’s speed and a consideration of why it was so noticeable in Singapore and whether it is here to stay for the rest of the 2013 season.

It is clear that Red Bull has made a big improvement in performance since the summer break. Compare the lap time charts from Singapore (above) and German Grands Prix (below). The numbers down the vertical axis are the lap times in seconds, with the lower times at the bottom. The number of laps in the race are across the horizontal axis.

In terms of relative pace to the others, Vettel and Red Bull were quite closely matched in Germany (below), but have obviously moved a long way ahead in Singapore.

Mercedes had the edge in Hungary in July, where there are also plenty of sub 130km/h corners. Hamilton’s pace, when not held up by traffic, is still quite good, but Vettel has a clear one second advantage in the early part of the race and more like 1.5 to 2 seconds in the period after the safety car (the blue line in the centre of the graphic which loops much lower than any other run). This post Safety car phase is probably an accurate reflection of the true pace of the car fully extended, as Vettel and Red Bull were looking to build a big gap as he had to stop again and he didn’t want to come out behind one of the cars, like Alonso, Raikkonen or Button, who were going to the finish on the same set of tyres.

It’s quite rare to see a race so utterly dominated by a car and driver combination. Having built a gap early in the race, he backs off and manages the tyres and the gap to his first stop. But the safety car made him work to get the advantage back and he had huge pace, with very limited tyre degradation.

So where has the pace come from and will it show up as dramatically as this in Korea and Japan?

The key to this is that Red Bull has done a lot of work on traction out of low speed corners. On average, across all the tracks in the F1 championship, 25% of the lap time is spent below 130km/h on corner exits. It is the most significant single area to focus on. So if you can make a significant gain in that area, you can get effectively a 25% improvement, which will show in your lap time.

Singapore is an extreme example as it has 23 corners and many of them are below 130km/h – so all the gain Red Bull has been working for will show up on a track like that. This will be less the case in Suzuka, which is a fast, flowing circuit, but it will probably show up in the first and final sectors in Korea, which will be pretty good to the team. Much of the work has gone on in the diffuser area, which generates the key downforce for the low speed corners in conjunction with the exhausts, although off-throttle blowing (where the throttle stays open even when the driver lifts off) is banned.

Also contributing to Red Bull’s dominance in the corner exit area is work they have done in the wind tunnel on high steer characteristics, when the car is turning and in yaw (ie leaning). Red Bull chassis have always had very high amounts of downforce, but here they’ve worked to ensure that it isn’t just about high load, it’s about the stability of the load, which is a big focus. Red Bull has always been able to push the diffuser hard in the high speed corners, the key to their speed now is that they have tuned it to work at low speed.

Also helping them is the Pirelli move to the harder specification tyres, since Hungary. They have won three of the four races on the new spec tyres. Beyond that, like Mercedes they have done work on the inside of the wheel rims in the field of thermal management and heat rejection. The slots and texturing in the magnesium alloy rims work on flow through the rim. It’s a complex piece of work and quite expensive to do, but it helps with managing the temperature of these tricky Pirelli tyres.

This thermal management work has allowed Vettel to run a longer first stint than his rivals and to balance out his stops perfectly in recent races.

The team has also raised its game with the pit stops: in Singapore four of the five fastest stops in the race were done by Red Bull.

One intriguing note on all of this comes from Italy, where former team owner Giancarlo Minardi spoke to Gazzetta dello Sport after Singapore and observed that he had been trackside in a hospitality unit and heard what he thought sounded like traction control, a stuttering sound in the exhaust note of Vettel’s car, during the post safety car period.

Needless to say this has picked up some echoes around the internet, as everyone looks for reasons for Vettel’s dominance. While there does seem to be some work being undertaken in engine mapping to work around the ban on exhaust blowing, which may have contributed to the strange sound, the issue of traction control is broadly taken care of by the common Electronic Control Unit, which is manufactured for the FIA by McLaren Electronics. Because the unit is specified and the same for every team, it is hard to conceal a traction control command in what is essentially a spec part.

Rather than traction control, some kind of mapping to blow into the exhaust within the rules is more likely and this all fits with the corner exit work that Red Bull has been carrying out.


Overall it’s an impressive piece of work in this field of low speed corner exits; all the more so when you consider that they had also recently done a very impressive piece of work on the low-dowforce configuration of the car for Spa and particularly Monza, both of which they won comfortably. Red Bull has huge resources, but so do Ferrari and Mercedes.

This work shows how effectively they use those resources in terms of technical development. And with Vettel clearly maturing and stepping up a gear as a driver this season, far more measured in his qualifying and race performances, the combination is devastating. It shows what the rest are up against.

Success in sport isn’t just about doing your job properly, it’s about never giving anything away to the opposition. A brilliant footballer can dribble around 3 players and score a wonder goal, but if one of his defenders makes a mistake and gives the opposition an easy goal, it nullifies the adavantage.

Michael Schumacher brought this mentality to F1 together with Ferrari in the 2000s – never giving anything away, push everything to the limit all the time and in this he was supported by his team, with the key management figures all sharing the vision.

To be successful in F1 today you have to have this mentality and never let it slip. Red Bull Racing and Vettel have understood this and they have the limitless financial backing to support it.
Old 09-30-2013, 06:23 PM
  #55  
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So , since it's an FIA spec part , there's no way to skirt the rules.. You must be kidding ......

If you work in motorsports , you eventually understand the metrics involved and can tell when someone is doing it differently. Minardi's suggestion of engine note is very well noted here. TC is distinct when in operation, easy to manipulate , yaw, wheel speed, rpm TP angle. Then again Vettel could be just as good as you say , like Schumacher ...



As Bernard would say , enjoy the show ...........
Old 09-30-2013, 06:37 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by consolidated
One of the most commented aspects of the Singapore Grand Prix was the astonishing speed of Sebastian Vettel, particularly in the opening laps and the initial laps after the safety car. There have been many questions about how this was achieved and some interesting observations, such as Giancarlo Minardi’s comments about a strange sound coming from Vettel’s exhaust in these phases.

Here with the input of JA on F1 technical adviser Mark Gillan, former Williams F1 team chief operations engineer, is our analysis of Vettel’s speed and a consideration of why it was so noticeable in Singapore and whether it is here to stay for the rest of the 2013 season.

It is clear that Red Bull has made a big improvement in performance since the summer break. Compare the lap time charts from Singapore (above) and German Grands Prix (below). The numbers down the vertical axis are the lap times in seconds, with the lower times at the bottom. The number of laps in the race are across the horizontal axis.

In terms of relative pace to the others, Vettel and Red Bull were quite closely matched in Germany (below), but have obviously moved a long way ahead in Singapore.

Mercedes had the edge in Hungary in July, where there are also plenty of sub 130km/h corners. Hamilton’s pace, when not held up by traffic, is still quite good, but Vettel has a clear one second advantage in the early part of the race and more like 1.5 to 2 seconds in the period after the safety car (the blue line in the centre of the graphic which loops much lower than any other run). This post Safety car phase is probably an accurate reflection of the true pace of the car fully extended, as Vettel and Red Bull were looking to build a big gap as he had to stop again and he didn’t want to come out behind one of the cars, like Alonso, Raikkonen or Button, who were going to the finish on the same set of tyres.

It’s quite rare to see a race so utterly dominated by a car and driver combination. Having built a gap early in the race, he backs off and manages the tyres and the gap to his first stop. But the safety car made him work to get the advantage back and he had huge pace, with very limited tyre degradation.

So where has the pace come from and will it show up as dramatically as this in Korea and Japan?

The key to this is that Red Bull has done a lot of work on traction out of low speed corners. On average, across all the tracks in the F1 championship, 25% of the lap time is spent below 130km/h on corner exits. It is the most significant single area to focus on. So if you can make a significant gain in that area, you can get effectively a 25% improvement, which will show in your lap time.

Singapore is an extreme example as it has 23 corners and many of them are below 130km/h – so all the gain Red Bull has been working for will show up on a track like that. This will be less the case in Suzuka, which is a fast, flowing circuit, but it will probably show up in the first and final sectors in Korea, which will be pretty good to the team. Much of the work has gone on in the diffuser area, which generates the key downforce for the low speed corners in conjunction with the exhausts, although off-throttle blowing (where the throttle stays open even when the driver lifts off) is banned.

Also contributing to Red Bull’s dominance in the corner exit area is work they have done in the wind tunnel on high steer characteristics, when the car is turning and in yaw (ie leaning). Red Bull chassis have always had very high amounts of downforce, but here they’ve worked to ensure that it isn’t just about high load, it’s about the stability of the load, which is a big focus. Red Bull has always been able to push the diffuser hard in the high speed corners, the key to their speed now is that they have tuned it to work at low speed.

Also helping them is the Pirelli move to the harder specification tyres, since Hungary. They have won three of the four races on the new spec tyres. Beyond that, like Mercedes they have done work on the inside of the wheel rims in the field of thermal management and heat rejection. The slots and texturing in the magnesium alloy rims work on flow through the rim. It’s a complex piece of work and quite expensive to do, but it helps with managing the temperature of these tricky Pirelli tyres.

This thermal management work has allowed Vettel to run a longer first stint than his rivals and to balance out his stops perfectly in recent races.

The team has also raised its game with the pit stops: in Singapore four of the five fastest stops in the race were done by Red Bull.

One intriguing note on all of this comes from Italy, where former team owner Giancarlo Minardi spoke to Gazzetta dello Sport after Singapore and observed that he had been trackside in a hospitality unit and heard what he thought sounded like traction control, a stuttering sound in the exhaust note of Vettel’s car, during the post safety car period.

Needless to say this has picked up some echoes around the internet, as everyone looks for reasons for Vettel’s dominance. While there does seem to be some work being undertaken in engine mapping to work around the ban on exhaust blowing, which may have contributed to the strange sound, the issue of traction control is broadly taken care of by the common Electronic Control Unit, which is manufactured for the FIA by McLaren Electronics. Because the unit is specified and the same for every team, it is hard to conceal a traction control command in what is essentially a spec part.

Rather than traction control, some kind of mapping to blow into the exhaust within the rules is more likely and this all fits with the corner exit work that Red Bull has been carrying out.

Overall it’s an impressive piece of work in this field of low speed corner exits; all the more so when you consider that they had also recently done a very impressive piece of work on the low-dowforce configuration of the car for Spa and particularly Monza, both of which they won comfortably. Red Bull has huge resources, but so do Ferrari and Mercedes.

This work shows how effectively they use those resources in terms of technical development. And with Vettel clearly maturing and stepping up a gear as a driver this season, far more measured in his qualifying and race performances, the combination is devastating. It shows what the rest are up against.

Success in sport isn’t just about doing your job properly, it’s about never giving anything away to the opposition. A brilliant footballer can dribble around 3 players and score a wonder goal, but if one of his defenders makes a mistake and gives the opposition an easy goal, it nullifies the adavantage.

Michael Schumacher brought this mentality to F1 together with Ferrari in the 2000s – never giving anything away, push everything to the limit all the time and in this he was supported by his team, with the key management figures all sharing the vision.

To be successful in F1 today you have to have this mentality and never let it slip. Red Bull Racing and Vettel have understood this and they have the limitless financial backing to support it.
As per your suggestion, how are they writing maps to blow into the exhaust if the ecu's are fixed and spec to each team, what about the other teams ...? James Allen is a good Minion, Bernie must be pleased ...


Blowing into the exhaust .............
Old 09-30-2013, 07:15 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Looks Like Faux3 has Faux7's steering wheel from his Benetton days, you know , the one with the xtra button ...
When I read this story today, I knew you were coming out of retirement to take a shot at the greatest of all time. On schedule like ground hogs day
Old 09-30-2013, 07:25 PM
  #58  
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How many races did Schuamcher win coming out of retirement ? Kimi ? Prost ? Lauda, ? .. He won as many as i had predicted he would , easily the best gift from Faux 7 and fully appreciated ....


Old 09-30-2013, 08:03 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
As per your suggestion, how are they writing maps to blow into the exhaust if the ecu's are fixed and spec to each team, what about the other teams ...? James Allen is a good Minion, Bernie must be pleased ...


Blowing into the exhaust .............
Mercedes answers how mapping currently is allowed:

Mercedes: “Crucially, because all teams now use a common engine management system, there are limitations as to what any team can change with the car on-track, and these are only the engine “mix” settings. Fundamental changes to engine “modes”, where teams may chose to put aggressive or fuel-inefficient strategies into their cars for qualifying, can no longer be made for the race with the car in the garage or by the driver on-track.”
Secretly hiding an entire active TC program in a spec and inspected ECU is a different kettle of fish.
Old 09-30-2013, 08:27 PM
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On behalf of Sir A.Wayne, I hereby DEMAND an official inquiry into Sebastian Vettel and RBR, re: traction control.

We need an unbiased expert, someone beyond reproach, someone who has actual experience implementing traction control in defiance of regulations.....

There is but one person for the job.....

Flavio

Of course, he will require the RB9 to be driven by an impartial driver ... Say Fernando Alonso and a formal opinion offered.

It's good having you back Sir A.Wayne .... Just in time for the 2013 Ferrari wake and funeral.


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