Flying Finn

You're talking about Gro, right? Three times he was asked...
Without even going into the "who has the chance to wind WDC, it's different if you're both with same strategy but when one team mate is catching you pretty rapidly from behind with faster tires and actually has a chance to catch the guy in front of you, yet you manage to hold him up for 3 laps...

If regarding the tires, not the first time our US broadcast commentators are wrong...
Current F1 wheel & tire combo is about 10 kg front, 12 kg rear.

multi21

wait, wait, wait a minute... weren't you one of the ones complaining about Schumy having to pass Rubens by team order? How about Massa being told Alonso is faster than him? Is it okay for Grojean to pull over for Kimi? I think you see my point

paradisenb

Trouble maker.

Great race all the way to the checked flag.
I see Vettel and Kimi slugging it out for the WDC. Top drivers with good cars.
RB and Merc fighting for WCC. Both teams have strong #2 drivers.
Ferrari and Lotus for 3rd place. Weak #2 drivers.
Most likely:
Vettel - WDC
RB - WCC

Flying Finn

We all knew this was coming...
(where is VR's face palm image when you need one?)

Same situation, right?

AS I MENTIONED, "it's different if you're both with same strategy but when one team mate is catching you pretty rapidly from behind with faster tires and actually has a chance to catch the guy in front of you".

Yesterday, Kimi, on soft tires, caught Grosjean who was not being able to challenge Vettel for a win, so in order to have at least one Lotus possibly win, they asked Gro to let Kimi pass (who most likely would've passed him anyway) who as we saw, was able to catch also Vettel.

In 2002, when Barichello was ordered to let Schumi pass, Barichello (who was on pole also btw) was leading the race COMFORTABLY and Schumi was in 2nd position.

See the difference?

multi21

Finn,

You're kidding right? The blue and white frosted eyeglasses are blinding you. You know F1 better than that.

Kimi started the last stint on 6 lap old soft tires from qualifying session, not new ones. Gro was on new medium compound. Kimi was faster for a very short period of time. Notice Gro fell back of Kimi right away once he let him by not because of pace but because he didn't want to ruin his tires being directly behind Kimi as HE WOULD NOT BE ALLOW TO REPASS KIMI under any circumstance and his job was to protect Kimi's backside from a charging Alonso to consolidate points.

Kimi is in the Championship hunt, Gro is not. IIRC that was in the radio transmission that "GRO" didn't understand. I understand that and agree with the call. Kimi is fighting for the WDC, you are not. My point is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. When it happened with Schumacher or Alonso, you (and others) said there shouldn't be team orders and if he wants to get by he should be faster. That's all I'm saying. Be consistent.

The courting that Lotus is going to do the rest of the season to try and keep Kimi within their team is going to be interesting to watch. They know what Kimi means to Lotus and they also know that RBR would really like to have him in their car. I see a case of empty Vodka bottles, a blow out party, pen and contract in Kimi's future!

My993C2

It wasn't just Grosjean and Raikkonen yesterday. Rosberg temporarily held up Hamilton in the middle of the race when the two teammates on different strategies met up on the track and Rosberg's competitiveness temporarily held up his teammate. And the same thing with Button and Perez who were also on different strategies.

However with all that said, if Grosjean would have let Raikkonen pass a lap or two sooner, yes Kimi would have caught up to Vettel, but there is no guarantee that Raikkonen would have passed Vettel. Catching someone on the track is one thing, passing them is another. Alonso's option tires in the 3rd stint were brand new, they were in even better condition than Raikkonen's options and the Spaniard caught the Frenchmen with several laps still left in the race. But Alonso was unable to pass Grosjean. People saying Grojean robbed his teammate of the win, yesterday are wrong. There was no guarantee than Kimi would have passed Vettel. Vettel drove a good race doing what he needed to keep the two Lotus cars behind him.

Flying Finn

Pete,

Those tires were actually 3 laps old, not 6 (again, our US F1 crew is not the most reliable).

Regardless, the whole point of taking Kimi in (he would've preferred to stay out and not pit at all) with only 10 laps left was that he'd be faster than Gro & Seb because the softs were about 1 sec. faster.
Grosjean didn't have the pace, otherwise he would've caught Seb but he didn't.

In 2002, as I said and everyone knows, even you with your Schumi shades, the situation was much different because both Ferrari team mates were not chasing anyone, nor were they being chased. Not to mention it was only the 6th round.

No matter what, there is no argument who's BY FAR the most beneficial (from team backing, being No. 1 driver etc.) driver of F1 history so you don't need to always try to defend.
Besides, you said you agree with yesterday, do you agree the same way about 2002 Austrian GP?

MY993C2,
I agree, passing,Vettel would've been very difficult but when you're the one chasing and have less to lose, you have to give it all and try.

multi21

I might not like the purity of allowing a teammate by, but I completely understand that the objective is to win both WDC and WCC and allowing a teammate to do so to that end. That's the way the rules are written - strong #1 driver, good #2 driver.

I agree with it yesterday in Kimi's case. I agree with it in Alonso's case a couple years ago when Massa was informed Alonso was faster than him too.

It was not easy to watch when it happened at the A1 ring in 2002, but let's not forget that it was 11 years ago and some have diminished memories of how it happened. Yes it was early in the season, (not as early in the season as Vettel passing Webber this year however), Rubens was told to let MS pass way earlier in the race after the last pit stops. RB failed to do so to the point that I was wondering if he was actually going to even do it. He waited until the last corner of the last lap to stick it to Ferrari and show that he was actually faster that day. No question he was -- that day.

But let me remind you that Luca DiMontezelmolo was the first to say after that race that when you sign a contract to race for Ferrari you are racing for the TEAM and if the team says you pull over, you do so. In the end, MS and Ferrari won both championships which is the goal at the beginning of the season. You never know what is going to happen down the line so it's better to get all the points you can now. Just ask Alonso and Hamilton when both raced with McLaren and both lost by 1 point to Kimi, ask Massa in 2008 when he lost by 1 point to Hamilton, ask Button in 2009 when his huge lead in the points vanished when others caught up to the double diffuser. Ask Alonso in 2010 who lost a point of two, Ask Alonso in 2012 when he lost by a couple points to Vettel.

You get the point. I gotta have a beer with you one day Finn! Seriously! All this explaining on the keyboard is giving me carpel tunnel

Flying Finn

Finally something we fully agree!

P.S. As you know, there was another incident where leading Ferrari driver had to let the other Ferrari driver by for the victory.
But there was a difference in driver behavior between those two incidents.

The winning driver insisted the guy who let him by to stand on the top podium and that winner's trophy is in the 2nd driver's collection...

Those who might not know: Eddie Irvine gave his trophy to Mika Salo. Class act.

multi21

It's possible that the top 3 teams will have open seats for next year (RBR, Lotus, Ferrari). Given Massa has crashed 4 times in the past 3 GP weekends coupled with his self induced DNF on Sunday, it's hard to imagine Ferrari having more patience with him than they have already shown.

Massa admits driver error caused spin

8 July 2013

2013 German Formula 1 Grand Prix: Sunday race results

Ferrari's Felipe Massa has admitted that a driver error caused his spin in the early stages of Sunday afternoon's German Grand Prix at the Nürburgring, although the ultimate cause of his retirement was a stalled engine after getting stuck in fifth gear.

Having progressed to sixth at the start, Massa's race came to a premature end on Lap 4, with the Brazilian losing the rear end of his car under braking for the first corner.

"I am very disappointed with what happened, especially after the rest of the weekend had gone well. At the start of Lap 4, when I was on the straight, at the moment when I braked, the rear wheels locked up and I couldn’t stop the car from spinning.

"When the car came to a stop, it was stuck in fifth gear and I couldn’t stop the engine from stalling. It’s very odd that it got stuck like that, even if so far, the team has not seen anything unusual. Now I want to focus on the next race when I plan to do my utmost to turn things around."

In the sister Ferrari, Fernando Alonso went on to finish the race in fourth position

gums

that was an exciting race but I think they made more of the Lotus challenge to Vettel than it really was. I think he was controlling those last few laps and they'd never have passed him.

agdamis

+1

adrial

If he was in control he wouldn't have allowed Kimi to close to within 1 second ... that is too close for comfort. One tiny error and the race would have been lost.

paradisenb

The technical difference between this year's Kimi is faster than you and a couple of years ago "Alonso is faster than you" is that this year it is by the book legal and in the DV moment it was not.
I think Lotus was correct in giving Gro at go at Vettel with his new tires and correct in asking him to move aside for Kimi to have his chance.
In another lap or 2 Kimi would have caught Vettel. He would have passed him with DRS, but if the race went 6 more laps Vettel would have retaken the position when Kimi's tires went off.

f8vr993

I think either Kimi or Grojean had a real shot of winning this race.
Game changer was when RB figured out that Groj's second tire change strategy would work against them, they called in SV right away and changed tires. Had RB waited even one more lap longer then I believe Renault would have WON this race for sure.
That is what differenciates Champion team from wanna bees.
React to changes and make best of your opportunities... Works in real life as much as F1.
Congratz to Grojean for a fine driving! I knew you had it in you.
Now just be consistant will ya?!!