OGRacing

Sorry, to much BLING.

TXE36

Just like a track session can go from a blast to an oh sh*t! in an instant, so can Rennlist.

As I sometimes do when I'm driving, I didn't look ahead enough and got surprised. This was avoidable and I should have known better.

What has been seen cannot be unseen. Eye bleach, STAT!

-Mike

jdistefa

Mwah ha hahahaha

John's 991

This is a great discussion, and I appreciate the thoughtful comments.

Perhaps I should rephrase my original question. In a race car, I can wear proper head restraint system, clothing, etc. In my street car, which is a joy to drive on the track, and in my opinion needs to be driven on the track to enjoy, I have 3 point belts. As I don't want to convert it into a race car, I am exploring potential safety options.

It seems that the neck collar is of marginal benefit, which is what I use now. A HANS or system that requires six point belts won't work unless/until somebody comes up with a way to use one with stock seats. That leaves systems like the Simpson Pro Rage/Hybrid X or R3 as the next best, and frankly only, option available.

Both of these system appear to offer benefits and are certified, which would indicate that they offer some level of benefit, but there is not clear data on either of them. The Rage/Hybrid looks to be more comfortable, but potentially less effective than the R3. The R3 specifically states that it is not dependent on the seat belts to work, but there have been some compelling arguments that this may not be the case.

There was one are that was not addressed, which is that modern street cars have airbags. Often lots of them. As such, it would seem that the body would stay more upright, thus the restraint system would work better then when bent in a "C" position. Might this improve the functionality of these systems?

There are lots of folks who do HPDE events in non-race prepped cars, and I am sure that developing some consensus on useful safety gear would be very beneficial, as well as a great opportunity for folks liek Simpson, HANS, etc.

pontifex4

I wear a Hybrid Pro, and this is correct: it is NOT compatible with 3-point belts. It is for 5- or 6-point belts, only.

Circuit Motorsports

Two things John.

Be wary of thinking the Hybrid Pro is next best compared to a HANS. It's a different option

As for the need for a head restraing in a three point car. That's another discussion. 3 point harness doesn't do nearly as much to restrain the torso of a person. That's the issue with a 6 point. The torso is well restrained and the head isn't. When the torso isn't as well restrained is the head restraint really useful or is it just a security blanket. Not sure as I don't know anyone who has run actual tests on it.

My gut says it can't hurt to have the R3 on when in three points. That's why I have one for instructing. Although it's just gathering dust while I haven't been sitting right seat.

ltc

IIRC, Jason Lefler was wearing a Hybrid Pro at the time of his death.
It is one of 6 H&N restraints approved by NASCAR.

rlm328

My 2 cents. John you are in a new car. It has air bags which is an active restraint system if your car has a very sudden deceleration. Such as running into a wall, they deploy and should slow your movement. It would be an interesting debate to know how effective they are when haveing to slow down your head with the added weight of a helmet, but that is a different discussion.

The various head and neck restraint systems are primarily set up for cars with minimal interior safety equipment. I used to wear a collar as it took some of the loading off my neck. I have since switched to a HANS as I moved from a modern car to one with a 6 pt and roll cage so it is necessary. There are some schools of thought that the collars add a fulcrum that your helmet can lever off of and create neck injury, but you do see them used in a lot racing applications where a HANS is not mandated.

Circuit Motorsports

Yep, and the cause of death was blunt force trauma. Not something that a head restraint covers.

John's 991

Interesting thought that the neck collar could be worse than nothing at all. When driving at most HPDE's I only drive 20-30 minutes at a time, 4 to 6 sessions a day which is not enough to tire my neck. When instructing, and being in the car twice as much at least, it does help with fatigue I agree.

However the main reason I have always worn it is that I thought it offers some level of protection in a crash. If in fact it offers no protection and perhaps "provides a fulcrum" that could exacerbate the situation, then I need to rethink using it at all.

Hopefully somebody can shed some light on safety in a modern car with active restraints (airbags) and 3 point belts including the potential additional benefit (or lack) of an R3 type restraint system. It does say on the Simpson site that the R3 is not dependent on seat belts. It does not say that for the Rage/Hybrid system.

OGRacing

Gut feeling isn't good enough when it comes to this. What would everyone be saying if they did do testing and it came back that injuries were worse with an R3 when not used with 5/6 point belts? Without testing it's just that, a guess. Until that point it's just an expensive piece of equipment with an unknown value.

Sterling Doc

Good points on the R3, guys. I got sucked in by the conventional wisdom . I'll have the decency to spare you guys the eye-bleach pics, though!

John's 991

OG Racing, I appreciate your passion. So I understand, it is your advice to NOT buy an R3, which is a product you sell, because there is no known benefit to using it in a car with three point belts and airbags?

As a note I did shoot a note to Simpson asking them this specific question. I appreciate you not wanting your customers to waste money! There certainly seems to be a need for this type or product, although its possible airbags are a better solution than a restraint system.

69gaugeman

My only concern here, would be the second impact. If the airbags went off and you continued into a wall or another car hit you, the second impact could do you in.

kurt M

Well hell, I was hoping you had something more on the R3. I too want a setup that can offer some improvement to stock seat/belt setups. Once you get used to a 6 point, H&N, full containment, side nets, cage and fire supression getting into the right seat of a hopped up car with stock seats and belts feels a bit exposed.

The R3 makers would do well to test the device with 3 point and if it does work better than nothing ether use the info as a true sell point or limit legal exposure and say don't use it with 3 points.