Order of Operations - what modifications come first for converting to a track car?
06-24-2013, 09:05 PM
#46
Three Wheelin'
I think it may be technically possible and within product installation requirements to use a HANS with a harness bar. I haven't investigated, but I think it is possible to get the angles right in any case.
I know of several 928 cars that do frequent DE and race events. Some of the drivers even post in these forums. One is even named Mark. These is even a sanctioning body steward that has posted in these forums that drives a 928, though I am not sure whether on track.
Whether a 928 makes a good platform for your application and requirements (street, AX, DE, racing and/or U-boat) of course depends on your application and requirements. For a wide range of possible applications and requirements, the fact that it is a Porsche is good, compared to a Chevy Vega. For some, a Vega might be better.
I know of several 928 cars that do frequent DE and race events. Some of the drivers even post in these forums. One is even named Mark. These is even a sanctioning body steward that has posted in these forums that drives a 928, though I am not sure whether on track.
Whether a 928 makes a good platform for your application and requirements (street, AX, DE, racing and/or U-boat) of course depends on your application and requirements. For a wide range of possible applications and requirements, the fact that it is a Porsche is good, compared to a Chevy Vega. For some, a Vega might be better.
06-24-2013, 09:06 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
..
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 12-04-2013 at 10:39 AM.
06-24-2013, 09:26 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
Sorry, but I'm just not getting this thread. You have done 2 DEs and plan to do at least 2 more per year? That is really very little. Presumably, you already have a helmet and your car passed inspection. A roll cage, race seat, harness, and lots more are required for wheel-to-wheel racing certification, but not for DEs. Not to dampen your enthusiasm, but why not just run the car as it is until you have more experience and know what kind of brake fluid you have, at which point can make better decisions about what you want/need next?
06-24-2013, 09:33 PM
#50
Administrator - "Tyson"
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The only reasonable course of action is to sell or park the 928. Buy an already prepared Race Car with a PCA log book. For chump change, compared to what you are going to spend progressing your 928, you can buy a full race prepped 924 or 944. You will get all the safety equipment and go fast mods you need to be competitive in racing and you are sure to win all your DEs. It will have some resell market as well. The 928 will never be a good race car and it will cost you an arm and leg to keep it running.
I've been on the fence about converting my 79 - 928 into a full "race car" since the day I bought it.
Conclusion is, find a used race car.
My 79 is already gutted, with a rollbar, harness, Recaro race buckets etc..... but taking it the next step of a full cage, plexiglas etc...? Nope, I'll buy something already built.
06-24-2013, 09:43 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Sorry to disappoint, raspitz. I started the thread because I intend to take my DE experience seriously for many years to come, and because I'm at a bit of a crossroads with the car. It needs body work (paint, repair some bad scratches etc), which I won't do if this is to become a track car. It also is ready for tires, and since I really only drive this car on very rare occasions, more aggressive tires seemed like a logical option. But safety is also a more logical option. I did my brake upgrade first. One must first go slow to go fast!
In any event, I love all the 928 hate! Classic. I understand that what I'm endeavoring to do isn't as easy as running a 944 etc, but a) I'm something of a glutton for punishment when it comes to cars and b) the 928 can be an awesome track car if you're willing to put up with it's idiosyncrasies, emphasis on crazy. A properly sorted 928 is a joy to drive. To be sure, I'm pretty green, literally and figuratively, but the 928 held its own with a brand new 911 at VIR in the spring. Not bad for a 25 year old car that cost 1/10th (probably less!) of the new 911.
When the time presents itself, I plan to do more than 2 per year. I will never be an every weekend DE guy, as much fun as that might be. And I want to survive my mistakes, and I will make mistakes. So, safety first. The 928 hit 150 on the back straight at VIR. That's pretty damn fast, and I could have gone faster but I lifted because it felt like I might be getting both beyond the car and my own abilities. Better safety equipment is needed to ensure total confidence in those situations.
In any event, I love all the 928 hate! Classic. I understand that what I'm endeavoring to do isn't as easy as running a 944 etc, but a) I'm something of a glutton for punishment when it comes to cars and b) the 928 can be an awesome track car if you're willing to put up with it's idiosyncrasies, emphasis on crazy. A properly sorted 928 is a joy to drive. To be sure, I'm pretty green, literally and figuratively, but the 928 held its own with a brand new 911 at VIR in the spring. Not bad for a 25 year old car that cost 1/10th (probably less!) of the new 911.
When the time presents itself, I plan to do more than 2 per year. I will never be an every weekend DE guy, as much fun as that might be. And I want to survive my mistakes, and I will make mistakes. So, safety first. The 928 hit 150 on the back straight at VIR. That's pretty damn fast, and I could have gone faster but I lifted because it felt like I might be getting both beyond the car and my own abilities. Better safety equipment is needed to ensure total confidence in those situations.
06-24-2013, 09:47 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Bingo.....
I've been on the fence about converting my 79 - 928 into a full "race car" since the day I bought it.
Conclusion is, find a used race car.
My 79 is already gutted, with a rollbar, harness, Recaro race buckets etc..... but taking it the next step of a full cage, plexiglas etc...? Nope, I'll buy something already built.
I've been on the fence about converting my 79 - 928 into a full "race car" since the day I bought it.
Conclusion is, find a used race car.
My 79 is already gutted, with a rollbar, harness, Recaro race buckets etc..... but taking it the next step of a full cage, plexiglas etc...? Nope, I'll buy something already built.
I've heard this advice before, and there was even an S4 track car in Pano a couple of months ago. Strongly considered it. But I enjoy the process of building it myself and picking what components I want where, rather than buying the pre assembled kit. It's all part of the fun, to me. Hope that makes sense.
06-24-2013, 10:08 PM
#54
Administrator - "Tyson"
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Makes sense and that was my plan when I bought my 79.
Then I talked to shops experienced in building NASA / SCCA etc... cages, saw the price tag...then looked at used race cars (already with certified cages).
That ended that debate.
Buy a caged tub and add everything, save your already nice street car for the street.
One of the biggest regrets I hear from people all the time that turned their pride and joy into a track only car, is how much they miss having it for non-track driving.
Then I talked to shops experienced in building NASA / SCCA etc... cages, saw the price tag...then looked at used race cars (already with certified cages).
That ended that debate.
Buy a caged tub and add everything, save your already nice street car for the street.
One of the biggest regrets I hear from people all the time that turned their pride and joy into a track only car, is how much they miss having it for non-track driving.
06-24-2013, 10:15 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Makes sense and that was my plan when I bought my 79.
Then I talked to shops experienced in building NASA / SCCA etc... cages, saw the price tag...then looked at used race cars (already with certified cages).
That ended that debate.
Buy a caged tub and add everything, save your already nice street car for the street.
One of the biggest regrets I hear from people all the time that turned their pride and joy into a track only car, is how much they miss having it for non-track driving.
Then I talked to shops experienced in building NASA / SCCA etc... cages, saw the price tag...then looked at used race cars (already with certified cages).
That ended that debate.
Buy a caged tub and add everything, save your already nice street car for the street.
One of the biggest regrets I hear from people all the time that turned their pride and joy into a track only car, is how much they miss having it for non-track driving.
06-24-2013, 10:25 PM
#56
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So, safety first. The 928 hit 150 on the back straight at VIR. That's pretty damn fast, and I could have gone faster but I lifted because it felt like I might be getting both beyond the car and my own abilities. Better safety equipment is needed to ensure total confidence in those situations.
First thing I would do is spend $ on a lot of parts inspection and replacement as needed. Then safety gear and whatever it takes to make the brakes ultra reliable.
Performance mods after you have another year of DE under your belt.
Love the 928 - had a 1987 S4 before my track days (those were my on ramp/off ramp days). That car was fast; accelerated like a Saturn 5.
Have fun!
06-24-2013, 10:32 PM
#57
Administrator - "Tyson"
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And since I live in Baltimore, non track driving really blows. Just too much traffic. I'd prefer to just save it for the track. I think it will still be streetable, though. MD allows historic and hot rod tags, so the car will never be inspected again in MD. Lastly, this street car ain't that nice yet! To me anyway.
Ok, I'll admit it, I have a hidden agenda.... I see a rare colored 928 in your avatar and don't want to see it "taken off the road" even for track use...
Go buy a black, red, or white one like everyone else......
06-24-2013, 10:36 PM
#58
Race Director
Courtshark
Speaking as someone who got hooked several years and thousands of $$$ before you did...here is my thoughts
You are far better off spending your budget on track time and learning to drive faster than buying whiz-bang go fast parts.... With that said I would stay on street tires at least until you wear them out....being able to drive to the track and home in the same vehicle makes life quite a bit easier....
In terms of safety, a better seat something like a Recaro SRD that reclines will save weight and improve your drivers "feel"...remember what is happening at the front tires gets communicated to you by the steering wheel....what the back tires are doing is communicated through your BUTT...having a strong seat that fits properly allows for better control.... Perfect example...my race 928 has a hard mounted Racetech seat....I can feel everything the tail is doing...all the time... My new street car (Scion FRS) is the best handling street car on track I have ever driven, but I hate not being locked into the seat-car it feels like I am loosey-goosy all over the place in the FRS and those seats are actually pretty good, but far from race seats
2nd Get a Devek 1/2 bar (4 point) and install harnesses....this drastically improves your safety and allows you to be locked into the seat by the harness... Shoot me a PM, I have 2 recaro SRD seats for sale with Devek 1/2 bar and harnesses...
Brakes: Super Blue fluid is fine, you have the same brakes I do on my racer.....get a baby sock to put over the fill lid of the reservoir in case it spits..... You will need to upgrade your brake pads, BUT wait until the street pads are worn out....993TT brakes on good fluid with stock pads is plenty given the HP of your 928 Once they are worn out....get a street-sport style pad since you will be doing double duty.....
TIRES: I would stay on street tires until they are worn out.....once they are worn out then you could jump up to an R comp, that still is reasonable on the street...say Toyo R888 or RA1
Weight reduction: Never a bad idea....but the 50lbs you save from AC makes the car much worse to live with as a street car......my last track day was 108F....I taught driving school in my FRS....sitting in the hot pit waiting to go out with the AC on was quite nice....okay I admit driving around with the AC on on track too....
OILING....this is HUGE...insane really....as you progress and begin to push the car harder and harder you will blow the engine....the typical answer is around 9 hours on track.....the S4 oiling system is horrible....a joke really..... Get an OB oil pan setup with 3/8th pan spacer (requires mini starter)....this single mod will allow the engine to live nearly forever...plus its a perfect excuse to check your rod bearings & change motor mounts.... I have ran this setup on all the 928 racers I built once I blew three engines......since then...ZERO not one.... I will give you once last caveat for long engine life....I do believe shifting no higher than 6000rpm is a great idea...especially for a 32V engine...
Bottom line.....spend your budget as slow as possible, with as much expense DRIVING.... Feel free to ask me anything....I will glady offer my experience in racing 928's My single goal is to get more 928's out there and hopefully you can learn from my mistakes and not fall into them!!
Speaking as someone who got hooked several years and thousands of $$$ before you did...here is my thoughts
You are far better off spending your budget on track time and learning to drive faster than buying whiz-bang go fast parts.... With that said I would stay on street tires at least until you wear them out....being able to drive to the track and home in the same vehicle makes life quite a bit easier....
In terms of safety, a better seat something like a Recaro SRD that reclines will save weight and improve your drivers "feel"...remember what is happening at the front tires gets communicated to you by the steering wheel....what the back tires are doing is communicated through your BUTT...having a strong seat that fits properly allows for better control.... Perfect example...my race 928 has a hard mounted Racetech seat....I can feel everything the tail is doing...all the time... My new street car (Scion FRS) is the best handling street car on track I have ever driven, but I hate not being locked into the seat-car it feels like I am loosey-goosy all over the place in the FRS and those seats are actually pretty good, but far from race seats
2nd Get a Devek 1/2 bar (4 point) and install harnesses....this drastically improves your safety and allows you to be locked into the seat by the harness... Shoot me a PM, I have 2 recaro SRD seats for sale with Devek 1/2 bar and harnesses...
Brakes: Super Blue fluid is fine, you have the same brakes I do on my racer.....get a baby sock to put over the fill lid of the reservoir in case it spits..... You will need to upgrade your brake pads, BUT wait until the street pads are worn out....993TT brakes on good fluid with stock pads is plenty given the HP of your 928 Once they are worn out....get a street-sport style pad since you will be doing double duty.....
TIRES: I would stay on street tires until they are worn out.....once they are worn out then you could jump up to an R comp, that still is reasonable on the street...say Toyo R888 or RA1
Weight reduction: Never a bad idea....but the 50lbs you save from AC makes the car much worse to live with as a street car......my last track day was 108F....I taught driving school in my FRS....sitting in the hot pit waiting to go out with the AC on was quite nice....okay I admit driving around with the AC on on track too....
OILING....this is HUGE...insane really....as you progress and begin to push the car harder and harder you will blow the engine....the typical answer is around 9 hours on track.....the S4 oiling system is horrible....a joke really..... Get an OB oil pan setup with 3/8th pan spacer (requires mini starter)....this single mod will allow the engine to live nearly forever...plus its a perfect excuse to check your rod bearings & change motor mounts.... I have ran this setup on all the 928 racers I built once I blew three engines......since then...ZERO not one.... I will give you once last caveat for long engine life....I do believe shifting no higher than 6000rpm is a great idea...especially for a 32V engine...
Bottom line.....spend your budget as slow as possible, with as much expense DRIVING.... Feel free to ask me anything....I will glady offer my experience in racing 928's My single goal is to get more 928's out there and hopefully you can learn from my mistakes and not fall into them!!
06-24-2013, 10:45 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Courtshark
Speaking as someone who got hooked several years and thousands of $$$ before you did...here is my thoughts
You are far better off spending your budget on track time and learning to drive faster than buying whiz-bang go fast parts.... With that said I would stay on street tires at least until you wear them out....being able to drive to the track and home in the same vehicle makes life quite a bit easier....
In terms of safety, a better seat something like a Recaro SRD that reclines will save weight and improve your drivers "feel"...remember what is happening at the front tires gets communicated to you by the steering wheel....what the back tires are doing is communicated through your BUTT...having a strong seat that fits properly allows for better control.... Perfect example...my race 928 has a hard mounted Racetech seat....I can feel everything the tail is doing...all the time... My new street car (Scion FRS) is the best handling street car on track I have ever driven, but I hate not being locked into the seat-car it feels like I am loosey-goosy all over the place in the FRS and those seats are actually pretty good, but far from race seats
2nd Get a Devek 1/2 bar (4 point) and install harnesses....this drastically improves your safety and allows you to be locked into the seat by the harness... Shoot me a PM, I have 2 recaro SRD seats for sale with Devek 1/2 bar and harnesses...
Brakes: Super Blue fluid is fine, you have the same brakes I do on my racer.....get a baby sock to put over the fill lid of the reservoir in case it spits..... You will need to upgrade your brake pads, BUT wait until the street pads are worn out....993TT brakes on good fluid with stock pads is plenty given the HP of your 928 Once they are worn out....get a street-sport style pad since you will be doing double duty.....
TIRES: I would stay on street tires until they are worn out.....once they are worn out then you could jump up to an R comp, that still is reasonable on the street...say Toyo R888 or RA1
Weight reduction: Never a bad idea....but the 50lbs you save from AC makes the car much worse to live with as a street car......my last track day was 108F....I taught driving school in my FRS....sitting in the hot pit waiting to go out with the AC on was quite nice....okay I admit driving around with the AC on on track too....
OILING....this is HUGE...insane really....as you progress and begin to push the car harder and harder you will blow the engine....the typical answer is around 9 hours on track.....the S4 oiling system is horrible....a joke really..... Get an OB oil pan setup with 3/8th pan spacer (requires mini starter)....this single mod will allow the engine to live nearly forever...plus its a perfect excuse to check your rod bearings & change motor mounts.... I have ran this setup on all the 928 racers I built once I blew three engines......since then...ZERO not one.... I will give you once last caveat for long engine life....I do believe shifting no higher than 6000rpm is a great idea...especially for a 32V engine...
Bottom line.....spend your budget as slow as possible, with as much expense DRIVING.... Feel free to ask me anything....I will glady offer my experience in racing 928's My single goal is to get more 928's out there and hopefully you can learn from my mistakes and not fall into them!!
Speaking as someone who got hooked several years and thousands of $$$ before you did...here is my thoughts
You are far better off spending your budget on track time and learning to drive faster than buying whiz-bang go fast parts.... With that said I would stay on street tires at least until you wear them out....being able to drive to the track and home in the same vehicle makes life quite a bit easier....
In terms of safety, a better seat something like a Recaro SRD that reclines will save weight and improve your drivers "feel"...remember what is happening at the front tires gets communicated to you by the steering wheel....what the back tires are doing is communicated through your BUTT...having a strong seat that fits properly allows for better control.... Perfect example...my race 928 has a hard mounted Racetech seat....I can feel everything the tail is doing...all the time... My new street car (Scion FRS) is the best handling street car on track I have ever driven, but I hate not being locked into the seat-car it feels like I am loosey-goosy all over the place in the FRS and those seats are actually pretty good, but far from race seats
2nd Get a Devek 1/2 bar (4 point) and install harnesses....this drastically improves your safety and allows you to be locked into the seat by the harness... Shoot me a PM, I have 2 recaro SRD seats for sale with Devek 1/2 bar and harnesses...
Brakes: Super Blue fluid is fine, you have the same brakes I do on my racer.....get a baby sock to put over the fill lid of the reservoir in case it spits..... You will need to upgrade your brake pads, BUT wait until the street pads are worn out....993TT brakes on good fluid with stock pads is plenty given the HP of your 928 Once they are worn out....get a street-sport style pad since you will be doing double duty.....
TIRES: I would stay on street tires until they are worn out.....once they are worn out then you could jump up to an R comp, that still is reasonable on the street...say Toyo R888 or RA1
Weight reduction: Never a bad idea....but the 50lbs you save from AC makes the car much worse to live with as a street car......my last track day was 108F....I taught driving school in my FRS....sitting in the hot pit waiting to go out with the AC on was quite nice....okay I admit driving around with the AC on on track too....
OILING....this is HUGE...insane really....as you progress and begin to push the car harder and harder you will blow the engine....the typical answer is around 9 hours on track.....the S4 oiling system is horrible....a joke really..... Get an OB oil pan setup with 3/8th pan spacer (requires mini starter)....this single mod will allow the engine to live nearly forever...plus its a perfect excuse to check your rod bearings & change motor mounts.... I have ran this setup on all the 928 racers I built once I blew three engines......since then...ZERO not one.... I will give you once last caveat for long engine life....I do believe shifting no higher than 6000rpm is a great idea...especially for a 32V engine...
Bottom line.....spend your budget as slow as possible, with as much expense DRIVING.... Feel free to ask me anything....I will glady offer my experience in racing 928's My single goal is to get more 928's out there and hopefully you can learn from my mistakes and not fall into them!!
And sorry, Hacker! As rare as the paint color is, it has a pretty crappy respray on top of it. It's really not worth the body cost investment to repair everything aesthetically wrong with the car. I had a black one too... Auto tho. Only picked this one up because my brother talked me out of converting it to a 5 speed.
09-16-2013, 09:24 AM
#60
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Update: since June I've installed or am in the process of installing:
Oil pan spacer and custom pick up (928 Motorsports)
Aluminum radiator and expansion tank
Belly pans
Toyo R888s all around (street tires worn out; mounted R888s to track wheels)
Devek bar/cage
Corbeau Forza seats (for now; had these from a prior racing effort; they're a very bright blue and a little beat up from being in storage) with double locking sliders
G-force harnesses
Brake fluid changed to BG's top of the line
PFC 08 brake pads on the front
AC still in the car but also still non-op
New solid motor mounts
New exhaust system from headers back (X pipe; cats eliminated)
Oil pan spacer and custom pick up (928 Motorsports)
Aluminum radiator and expansion tank
Belly pans
Toyo R888s all around (street tires worn out; mounted R888s to track wheels)
Devek bar/cage
Corbeau Forza seats (for now; had these from a prior racing effort; they're a very bright blue and a little beat up from being in storage) with double locking sliders
G-force harnesses
Brake fluid changed to BG's top of the line
PFC 08 brake pads on the front
AC still in the car but also still non-op
New solid motor mounts
New exhaust system from headers back (X pipe; cats eliminated)