Coochas

But we know the IRS would never target certain groups.

Astroman

FWIW, last year on 5/12/12, I submitted my rules proposals. My second proposal was the following (this was after the confusion caused by the black flags at Lime Rock for driving down the "wrong" side of the track):

2) We need a clean, defined rule on "blocking" and what the penalty for it will be.

Mahler9th

It seems to me there are two related themes here:

1) A desire to have something put into the written rules on expectations regarding passing, blocking, et cetera.

2) A desire to have something put into the written rules on expectations regarding adjudication for 13/13 situations.

And these relate to the desire to eliminate or prevent "the use of 13/13" as a racing tool to keep folks from passing.

As I said before, in my experience with a much smaller sigma (and no 13/13), having stuff in writing can be helpful but is no panacea. I don't expect that these petitioners would believe that anything could eliminate all issues.

Of course, if PCA Club Racing management wanted to take steps beyond what they already do, they could publish the written information they use to train new stewards, whether in the rules document or elsewhere. But that information may not be all that different from what they have already provided.

Twice in 10+ seasons we have had to create mandatory meetings for folks to discuss our Guidelines for Racing with our steward in an interactive format. It helps, but is not a panacea. Since our Guidelines differ from other NASA groups operating under their CCR, the race control team and flaggers are briefed/reminded with key highlights for each and every race. I am certain PCA uses some or all of these practices.

If I wanted PCA to consider adding something more to written rules about passing and adjudication, I might create actual draft language for consideration.

Sean F

I'd like to see the foundational principle be "leave racing room" not corner ownership. If overtaking car has created overlap before turn in they are entitled to racing room through the corner. If the overtaken car slams it to the apex and creates contact, they get the 13. Incidental contact, no 13. Overtaking car creates contact with no overlap by turn in gets a 13. That's how we race now with guys we trust. If someone has a nose on me at turn in I give him room. If it happens after turn in, I'm not required to give room.

hf1

+1

mcipseric

At POC here in CA we race with these rules
The driver being passed and the driver passing both have the responsibility to co exist. The driver that is ahead at turn in "has the corner" but doesn't own the corner, since he has the responsibility to co exist.

Pretty clear. If you gain overlap after the lead car has begun turn-in, and there is contact, the passing car is at fault.
If the passing car gains any overlap before turn-in, you must co-exist in the turn.

As a wise instructor (pro-racer) once said about club racing, most non-mechanical contacts should be deemed your fault despite the rules. Knowing who your passing, knowing who is passing you, putting your car in a situation that has a high risk of contact, no matter who is actually at fault. We all lose when there is contact.

It took me a few hours of thought for this philosophy to sink in. The more I think about it, the more I understand it.

DDun911

I believe we need to make these passing rules clearer. I received Bryan's refresher at the Glen and was frankly surprised by the 100% at turn in rule. I think we would be better served by a 50% at turn in gets racing room rule (but which ever the case we need to make it better known). I asked the question of a good number of racers after the meeting and not one thought the answer was 100% at turn in.

Charles A. Toupin

Maybe VR could chime in regarding my videos he saw during the weekend. I had that orange car cutting me entering the bus stop. I thought that we were going to do it side by side, but he left off the brakes, turned in on me and I had to brake otherwise I would have hit him.

I'm with Sean here.

c.

Van

Hmm... there were 3 orange cars...

Gary R.

Gary R.

You 944 guys all paint your cars orange to confuse us....

John H

The way I look at it is, if a guy got to the point any part of his car is beside me, I am giving him room. If I don't get ahead of the guy before turn in, I back out. I'll get him in the next corner or set him up better the next lap. I care about my car and the other person's car. If he doesn't and chops, he has to live with that but he isn't going to hit me. This is supposed to be fun and full of camaraderie.

God does not just drop the overtaking car out of the sky. He/she got there because they were faster.

ZSA Motorsport

Im about of the same mindset when it comes to PCA. In Grand Am or WC, I think the experience and attention level is a smidge higher, drivers generally a bit more experienced or with it (general though not always and sometimes far worse)...but you also are permitted more leeway, I might continue through the turn if only 1/3 overlapped in hopes I have the inside line for the next turn. cars going side by side is not some magical, doesn't ever happen thing. It happens in all great racing, its just that there is a larger probability of hits, dents, dings, and big wrecks. and in a club race with non-professionals who might only get 4 to 15 track days/year, there is a high probability of not being able to properly feel that car to your inside, a high probability of not being able to leave proper racing lines.

in an ideal world, if you gave racing room, and both cars had great setups, great control and could navigate the trun without too much drama, this would be a non-issue. but as we've seen , its just a bit too much for PCA guys and since there is a huge premium on going home without $3000 to $30,000 in damage, its best to just give up the corners where most incidents probably occur.

in WC and Grand Am, I generally don't go to a race without spending some $1500 to $3000/event for crash insurance which still usually has some $1500 to $5000 deductible. I think the insurance company wanted $5000 premium for a $80,000 policy with a $5k deductible for my Camaro at COTA.
that's about how risky it is at a WC event.

I think pca guys can live with giving up the corner, or backing out and getting them next time by. the trophies and prize money just isn't that rewarding.

Veloce Raptor

He was on your left, at the 2nd apex, which IMO is a MUCH dodgier proposition.

Charles A. Toupin

That was not you Van!!!