winders

KaiB,

I really like this one too:

Classic! I see a version of a "I drive flat out" from this guy. This time it's "I drive under the speed limit" and in 7500 hours on mountain roads he has become Senna incarnate.

Maybe he would be faster than I am. But jeez, get on the track first......

Scott

Cheyenne

Well, I composed a response, and it disappeared, so my apologies, I'll try again.

Kai...you got nothing? So you can talk smack, but you can't talk shop? If I was wrong about something, I wanna know! If you guys have some better perspective to share, do it!

winders, please say Donohue incarnate, not Senna. Thanks!

Reading comprehension: You both need it. I was pretty clear on some things that you both glossed over. Maybe because being clear on what I said would ruin your fun? Dunno, but I've dealt with enough people on the 'net who couldn't read very well. No point trying to teach a grown man 4th grade reading comprehension.

AutoX is far too little track time, for car control skills I chose to learn a different way, and am happy that I did. Didn't wreck any cars, scare any little old ladies, or kill any animals on the road doing it. Sorry I didn't learn those same skills in a parking lot.

DE seems like fun. I've been a passenger around laguna in a decent 993 before. Good place to learn, but doesn't happen very often, and costs a lot. When I win the lotto, or have great success at my business, I'll show up with a slowish car, and learn some new things. Then slowly move up from there, taking care not to get ahead of myself.

But everything started on the street, and I'll always love the street. Sure, you can't go fast for real there, but it changes, has surprises, is dynamic and everchanging in ways the track isn't. I'm not an adrenalin junkie, so I can make the most of it while still playing safe. Sorry it seems like you had issues with that, I'm glad you made it to the track to keep yourself safe.

Flat out? I haven't "cut loose" on the street in years, and when I last did, I was too slow for it to matter much. People who do that don't last.

Did that guy in the video know his limits and respect them? With a passenger? On a mountain road? I went and checked a bunch of his other videos, and sorry, I wasn't impressed. Understeering through corners all the time, fighting the car, etc.

KaiB

A few points here, son.

If you'd like to learn to drive, go get help. Join the PCA or a similar club, attend DEs and other instructional events and keep your mouth shut.

Pontificating here will gather you nothing but more derision; most of the people here have been through the gauntlet and most are either instructors or racers - or both. Read all you like on the interweb, but you'll only learn the right stuff on a track with a competent instructor.

If you're serious about learning you'll do what folks here have done, if not, you'll never, ever advance and will then be one of thousands who thinks he can drive, yet is no better off than granny on her way to the market - and in some ways, worse.

Or.....bag it all and buy a Cup car.

Cheyenne

LOL.

Seriously Kai, you think I learned how to drive on the internet?

I learned by doing, the hard and slow way, and only then did I read books by professional drivers on driving technique. I'm happy to report that the people who wrote those books got it right. But I wouldn't know that if I'd just read the books and did what they said. If anything I'd read was wrong, I wouldn't know it for quite a while would I? It's okay, I spent years doing things wrong, or going back and forth on something until I figured out which was correct, or how situation affected it. It wasn't the way most people would do it, but I learned a different way, and traded quick progress for a deeper understanding.

Most people here, or anywhere I've found, have not been through half the gauntlet I've been through, and even then they didn't take it as seriously as I have. I'm sorry if I come out of left field having learned what I have in a different way that you have, but until you can point out where I'm wrong in what I write about, you need to prove yourself to me, not the other way around.

I don't care what people want to think of me. They can judge by what I write about driving, or play internet forum clique games, it doesn't change what I've done and what I know.

This all started because someone called out some commentary (I assumed mine) for being armchair quarterbacking. More people piled on, but so far, nobody has refuted anything I wrote about the guy's driving on a mountain road. Seems kinda funny, that everyone can point out that I don't know what I'm talking about, but nobody can do it in the context of my observations.

Cogito_Ergo_Zoom

Meanwhile, back on topic...

993GT

GT2 FTW!

danielyonker

Or.....bag it all and buy a Cup car.[/QUOTE]

Now that is funny, right there......of course this humor will be lost on those who have not been placed in a Cup run group.

docdan

Cheyenne, I have no beef with you or your analysis of the driver in the video. Based on what you have written, I do believe you do know a thing or two about driving theory and have spent many hours driving on technical roads. My guess is that you are indeed a pretty good driver and probably better than most.

I think the reason some of the guys are coming down on you hard is not so much about your video coaching. You were one of many that were guilty of that. It was the things you said in your defense that rubbed many the wrong way. Things such as:





As stated previously, many of the people on this forum are racers. If they don't actually race, they are hard core DE'rs like myself who have well over 100+ track days under their belts.

What we know is that to truly be fast (not just fast driving on the streets), and to truly know how to handle a car in a manner that street drivers won't readily know, you have to push the car to it's limits. I'm talking driving in the 8/10's to 10/10's range. If its wet, even better. It's at these limits that you start to appreciate the finer details of trailing throttle oversteer.

Can this be done on the street? Yes, but not safely. I don't believe driving on public streets at that 8/10's to 10/10's is ever safe just on principle alone. However, there are many road courses that have safe run-offs on nearly every corner (CMP in Kershaw, SC) where you can push yourself and your car to the limit safely.

I think many people on this board have pushed themselves to this limit on the track and have grown to the "next level" because of it. I think these same people feel that you will never get to that level by street driving, or you will be reckless in trying to get to that level by street driving at or near the limits of yourself and your car. Thus the need for track time to really develop into a "fast" driver while not being dangerous on the streets.

Your reply came across as dismissive of track experience.

For the record, you do seem like a reasonable and likeable fellow.

best,

Dan

ltc

I never would have considered the aerodynamic advantages of using windshield wipers to counteract trailing throttle oversteer.

Quinlan

I have tried that and it doesn't always work.

Cheyenne

Dan, thanks for the kind words. I do come on too strong sometimes, and don't explain myself very well.

I understand what you are saying, but my experience disagrees. I believe that it's possible to creep up on these levels of control without going over the line until it's possible to push the car past it's limits, without passing your own limits.

In fact, I almost see things the other way, is it really appropriate for someone to take any car, much less a highly capable one, to a track and attempt to run it at any kind of serious speed without already knowing how to point the car in any direction at any time, without knowing by feel how to remain ahead of the car at all times, without being adept at leaving a reserve so that you can make mistakes, but still be able to correct and carry on rather than go off track. Let's face it, almost all amateur racers, much less people at a DE, are pretty bummed when they wad a car. Very few walk away without a care. Even at the pro level, there are times and places to put it all on the line by driving over your head, which is a specific skill in and of itself, and if it's overused, well, we've all heard that "To finish first..." line right?

Let me make an analogy, do you walk down stairs? Everyone I know does. I do. We all know how bad it can be if you make a relatively small mistake at the top of a steep staircase. Heck, it doesn't even need to be that tall or steep, if things go badly, you can die, just like that. But it doesn't happen all that often, especially compared to the rate of auto crashes. This is because people know how to "drive" their body, but that took a lot of time. And by the time you learn stairs, you already (and recently!) learned to walk, so you're in the thick of learning new physicals skills, it's pretty much your job in life at that point. By the time you get to cars, not all people are still learning new physical skills. Even if you are, you rarely have the time to really immerse yourself in them. And even if you do, cars are complex systems, it takes some time. We all faceplanted plenty of times learning to walk, but since the consequences of stairs are higher, we learn them a bit slower, and it takes a while before we're running down them with an armload of boxes. But we get there.

But nobody teaches anyone about driving. Because everyone equates car control with performance driving, so it isn't taught, and also, everyone assumes you can't learn it without pushing the limits, and occasionally going over them. And mostly, people just don't care, which is sad, but for some reason the average person doesn't love driving enough to be good at it. So for all of us that like to go fast, or just want to feel competent to deal with emergencies on the freeway, we don't get much of a foundation to go on.

Most skills used for driving fast, don't need a special safe place to practice them. They just need to be learned slowly, and people need to not purposely drive over their heads. And for many people, much of the thrill of fast cars and fast driving is driving a car that is over their head, over their head. It's a rush, it makes you feel like a hero, especially if you catch some oversteer you induced without meaning to in flamboyant fashion. But it's not the same thing as learning the dynamics of driving in a structured, disciplined way, and then applying that, again in a structured, disciplined, and safety conscious way to driving as fast as is safely possible.

It may seem strange to think that you can ease your way up to 10/10ths driving, but it just takes time learning the feel of traction, time learning to put load where you need it, and time visualizing, then practicing correcting over or under steer. There is a separate set of skills that is useful for making good time around a racetrack. It's exciting to overwhelm yourself by learning both sets of skills at once, but it's just one way to do things, not the only way.

Coochas

If you are ever driving 10/10ths on the street, then you need to be locked up. Or am I to assume that your mountain driving is done on closed courses only?

danielyonker

I looked through the choices for all the little smiley icons, but couldn't find one of the dude snoring....I'm outraged.

provoste

+1

Can we close this tread? This is brutal.

danielyonker

This thread is like potato chips.....you know they are not good for you, but you just keep eating them....