track noob question: why do harnesses expire?
03-18-2013, 09:57 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
A couple of comments:
1. The national PCA is really pushing current belts for DE's, it isn't the regions: clubrace12@peachstatepca.org see section 4, paragraph 1, last sentence. So don't knock one specific region, it isn't the region.
2. I am in 100% agreement with the notion that UV light will kill harnesses. However, before PCA started enforcing the current harnes thing, we oculd use old ones. And I did. And those suckers were STIFF. It was pretty difficult to get them pulled down tight. Now that I have new ones, it is MUCH easier to do it. Yeah, they are Schroth versus I think Sparco, but I do think age has a bit to do with it, as I've used a few others in other cars.
Overall, I think it is pretty silly. But, I do think new harnesses are a bit safer because it is easier to adjust them. This is one rule that I think causes a more dangerous situation, and there is another that isn't a rule but is very highly stressed that I believe does the same (though there is a whole lot more controversy with that one).
1. The national PCA is really pushing current belts for DE's, it isn't the regions: clubrace12@peachstatepca.org see section 4, paragraph 1, last sentence. So don't knock one specific region, it isn't the region.
2. I am in 100% agreement with the notion that UV light will kill harnesses. However, before PCA started enforcing the current harnes thing, we oculd use old ones. And I did. And those suckers were STIFF. It was pretty difficult to get them pulled down tight. Now that I have new ones, it is MUCH easier to do it. Yeah, they are Schroth versus I think Sparco, but I do think age has a bit to do with it, as I've used a few others in other cars.
Overall, I think it is pretty silly. But, I do think new harnesses are a bit safer because it is easier to adjust them. This is one rule that I think causes a more dangerous situation, and there is another that isn't a rule but is very highly stressed that I believe does the same (though there is a whole lot more controversy with that one).
03-18-2013, 10:55 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
FYI, one way to soften up harnesses (regardless of age) that have stiffened up is spray them with a little bit of Febreeze...
Also, yeah, UV will harm them, just as it does with race tires and ESPECIALLY trailer tires. I think the harnesses in this track vehicle are current, however:
Also, yeah, UV will harm them, just as it does with race tires and ESPECIALLY trailer tires. I think the harnesses in this track vehicle are current, however:
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 06-27-2013 at 08:39 AM.
03-18-2013, 11:05 AM
#33
Three Wheelin'
FYI, one way to soften up harnesses (regardless of age) that have stiffened up is spray them with a little bit of Febreeze...
Also, yeah, UV will harm them, just as it does with race tires and ESPECIALLY trailer tires. I think the harnesses in this track vehicle are current, however:
Also, yeah, UV will harm them, just as it does with race tires and ESPECIALLY trailer tires. I think the harnesses in this track vehicle are current, however:
I wanted to debut this Friday, now the cats out of the bag!
Harness are $350 for nice ones once every five years. Tires are $1400 a weekend.
03-18-2013, 11:11 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
It's a GT1S car, right? 
03-18-2013, 11:16 AM
#35
Burning Brakes
What the hell does any of that even mean?
It's pretty straight forward. The belts were expired. The driver knew it. I would bet that he got hurty feelings because he didn't get special treatment as a "known quantity." I've always had to have current harnesses and so should everyone else.
What happens when the "known quantity" stuffs his car into the tires in the chute and his widow sues? You can bet that the car will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. See the Carrera GT case from CA for reference. Ambulance chasing attorneys and insurance companies are always looking for a pay day.
15 minutes in the paddock to change the harness. That's all. Suck it up. Why risk future events for everyone else?
It's pretty straight forward. The belts were expired. The driver knew it. I would bet that he got hurty feelings because he didn't get special treatment as a "known quantity." I've always had to have current harnesses and so should everyone else.
What happens when the "known quantity" stuffs his car into the tires in the chute and his widow sues? You can bet that the car will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. See the Carrera GT case from CA for reference. Ambulance chasing attorneys and insurance companies are always looking for a pay day.
15 minutes in the paddock to change the harness. That's all. Suck it up. Why risk future events for everyone else?
We are not in disagreement over the regulations. Given the absence of any comment specific to the comparison in question, I don't think we are in disagreement over the faulty idea that a 17 year old seat belt is somehow safer than an harness and HANS expired for a month.
As for the rest; I think you aptly displayed why many avoid the region's events. The people are wonderful.
03-18-2013, 11:19 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the replies. It has been a learning experience.
The statement above nails it.
My experience as well. I didn't realize how stiff the old harnesses had become until I put the news ones on. Night and day. It would be worth the money to replace them for this reason alone.
A couple of comments:
... I am in 100% agreement with the notion that UV light will kill harnesses. However, before PCA started enforcing the current harnes thing, we oculd use old ones. And I did. And those suckers were STIFF. It was pretty difficult to get them pulled down tight. Now that I have new ones, it is MUCH easier to do it.
... I am in 100% agreement with the notion that UV light will kill harnesses. However, before PCA started enforcing the current harnes thing, we oculd use old ones. And I did. And those suckers were STIFF. It was pretty difficult to get them pulled down tight. Now that I have new ones, it is MUCH easier to do it.
My experience as well. I didn't realize how stiff the old harnesses had become until I put the news ones on. Night and day. It would be worth the money to replace them for this reason alone.
03-18-2013, 11:39 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
If some find the criteria too rigid, they are always free to go elsewhere. Personally, I prefer leaning towards more structure/safety, versus loosely run events, many of which that have a history of incidents.
Not to mention that PCA events rely on PCA Insurance compliance in order to make events happen with affordable coverage. Unfortunately, there's been enough dumbass incidents successfully litigated against the Club because of poor event oversight. Failing to try and comply with some reasonable expectations puts the entire program in jeapordy. Personally, I would rather meet a few rules and have fun weekends at the track, versus not.
03-18-2013, 03:35 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
What the hell does any of that even mean?
It's pretty straight forward. The belts were expired. The driver knew it. I would bet that he got hurty feelings because he didn't get special treatment as a "known quantity." I've always had to have current harnesses and so should everyone else.
What happens when the "known quantity" stuffs his car into the tires in the chute and his widow sues? You can bet that the car will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. See the Carrera GT case from CA for reference. Ambulance chasing attorneys and insurance companies are always looking for a pay day.
15 minutes in the paddock to change the harness. That's all. Suck it up. Why risk future events for everyone else?
It's pretty straight forward. The belts were expired. The driver knew it. I would bet that he got hurty feelings because he didn't get special treatment as a "known quantity." I've always had to have current harnesses and so should everyone else.
What happens when the "known quantity" stuffs his car into the tires in the chute and his widow sues? You can bet that the car will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. See the Carrera GT case from CA for reference. Ambulance chasing attorneys and insurance companies are always looking for a pay day.
15 minutes in the paddock to change the harness. That's all. Suck it up. Why risk future events for everyone else?
03-18-2013, 05:52 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
I have no reason to.
I voiced an opinion, it was called into question, I elaborated with examples and was subsequently met with an attitude I would describe as typical for someone who shows up with an with entourage of support personnel and a camera crew to run in the novice group.
You were not that individual and you are just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else.
I voiced an opinion, it was called into question, I elaborated with examples and was subsequently met with an attitude I would describe as typical for someone who shows up with an with entourage of support personnel and a camera crew to run in the novice group.
You were not that individual and you are just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else.
03-18-2013, 06:10 PM
#40
As a few others have stated... while it's a stupid rule, it's a rule... and I'm sure it's required by the club's insurance to enforce it or face the risk of a lawsuit.
I'll also add that the board of directors for your region are held PERSONALLY LIABLE for the events. So you screw up, die, and someone finds out your belts were expired by a month. Someone (your wife, parents, siblings, whoever) decides to sue the club because you were let out on the track with expired belts, which is against the written rules. The club is found negligent. Who pays? Well once the region's coffers are empty... it's the board of directors of the region who have to cough up the cash.
Remember that the next time you take issues with silly rules. As silly as they may be... they're protecting someone's butt. Might even be the guy at the event standing next to you.
I'd say a reasonable solution for you could have been to wear your expired belts and HANS, and then throw the stock 3pt over top.
I'll also add that the board of directors for your region are held PERSONALLY LIABLE for the events. So you screw up, die, and someone finds out your belts were expired by a month. Someone (your wife, parents, siblings, whoever) decides to sue the club because you were let out on the track with expired belts, which is against the written rules. The club is found negligent. Who pays? Well once the region's coffers are empty... it's the board of directors of the region who have to cough up the cash.
Remember that the next time you take issues with silly rules. As silly as they may be... they're protecting someone's butt. Might even be the guy at the event standing next to you.
I'd say a reasonable solution for you could have been to wear your expired belts and HANS, and then throw the stock 3pt over top.
03-18-2013, 06:40 PM
#41
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Either way it's still your responsibility to follow the club rules.
03-18-2013, 06:47 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
As a few others have stated... while it's a stupid rule, it's a rule... and I'm sure it's required by the club's insurance to enforce it or face the risk of a lawsuit.
I'll also add that the board of directors for your region are held PERSONALLY LIABLE for the events. So you screw up, die, and someone finds out your belts were expired by a month. Someone (your wife, parents, siblings, whoever) decides to sue the club because you were let out on the track with expired belts, which is against the written rules. The club is found negligent. Who pays? Well once the region's coffers are empty... it's the board of directors of the region who have to cough up the cash.
Remember that the next time you take issues with silly rules. As silly as they may be... they're protecting someone's butt. Might even be the guy at the event standing next to you.
I'd say a reasonable solution for you could have been to wear your expired belts and HANS, and then throw the stock 3pt over top.
I'll also add that the board of directors for your region are held PERSONALLY LIABLE for the events. So you screw up, die, and someone finds out your belts were expired by a month. Someone (your wife, parents, siblings, whoever) decides to sue the club because you were let out on the track with expired belts, which is against the written rules. The club is found negligent. Who pays? Well once the region's coffers are empty... it's the board of directors of the region who have to cough up the cash.
Remember that the next time you take issues with silly rules. As silly as they may be... they're protecting someone's butt. Might even be the guy at the event standing next to you.
I'd say a reasonable solution for you could have been to wear your expired belts and HANS, and then throw the stock 3pt over top.
I am the OP and had chafed a bit at the rule. Not any longer.
03-18-2013, 06:50 PM
#43
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have no reason to.
I voiced an opinion, it was called into question, I elaborated with examples and was subsequently met with an attitude I would describe as typical for someone who shows up with an with entourage of support personnel and a camera crew to run in the novice group.
You were not that individual and you are just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else.
I voiced an opinion, it was called into question, I elaborated with examples and was subsequently met with an attitude I would describe as typical for someone who shows up with an with entourage of support personnel and a camera crew to run in the novice group.
You were not that individual and you are just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else.
My response is "follow the rules and quit bitching" but I guess we should all make exceptions at the club's peril for certain special people right?
I expect my 10 year old to try to negotiate every rule with me just as I would expect an adult undertaking a dangerous pastime to follow the rules without question.
At least they found a way to let him run the event rather than send him home.
Seriously, I don't speak for Potomac but I have run with them since 2005 and instruct with them as well. I see the work that goes into the events as they are usually full. Bad form to slam them on the internet when all they asked was for a participant to follow the rules.
But rules are for everyone else right?
03-18-2013, 06:55 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Exactly
Hate me if you want, but there are plenty of people who enjoy our Region's events. And there aren't too many Regions that take on the annual responsibility of 8 DE's, 1 Club Race/DE, 2 introductory HPDC's, 8 AX events, not to mention Rallies and Drive & Dines. And it takes a tremendous amount of volunteer support and management to pull it all off.
If some find the criteria too rigid, they are always free to go elsewhere. Personally, I prefer leaning towards more structure/safety, versus loosely run events, many of which that have a history of incidents.
Not to mention that PCA events rely on PCA Insurance compliance in order to make events happen with affordable coverage. Unfortunately, there's been enough dumbass incidents successfully litigated against the Club because of poor event oversight. Failing to try and comply with some reasonable expectations puts the entire program in jeapordy. Personally, I would rather meet a few rules and have fun weekends at the track, versus not.
If some find the criteria too rigid, they are always free to go elsewhere. Personally, I prefer leaning towards more structure/safety, versus loosely run events, many of which that have a history of incidents.
Not to mention that PCA events rely on PCA Insurance compliance in order to make events happen with affordable coverage. Unfortunately, there's been enough dumbass incidents successfully litigated against the Club because of poor event oversight. Failing to try and comply with some reasonable expectations puts the entire program in jeapordy. Personally, I would rather meet a few rules and have fun weekends at the track, versus not.
03-18-2013, 07:11 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Again, you're making judgments without even knowing the situation. The car was inspected by a well respected shop and it was missed prior to the event. Again, shame on both of us.