track noob question: why do harnesses expire?
03-15-2013, 04:21 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Having worked in the belt industry for years.....manufacturing safety equipment that just like belts has to save your life one time......
All of the UV protection in belting is in the coating/dyes. You can put some really good coatings on that will negate the effects of UV quite effectively. 5 years given our exposure in these cars is nonsense but like someone has already mentioned, its a way to perpetuate the business. I mean hey the UV could probably degrade the plastic in my Hans at the same rate.....oh wait lets not give them that idea.
All of the UV protection in belting is in the coating/dyes. You can put some really good coatings on that will negate the effects of UV quite effectively. 5 years given our exposure in these cars is nonsense but like someone has already mentioned, its a way to perpetuate the business. I mean hey the UV could probably degrade the plastic in my Hans at the same rate.....oh wait lets not give them that idea.
03-15-2013, 04:25 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
My understanding of harness wear is that in a track car, the belts are always tight. But in order to work properly, they have a certain amount of stretch in the them to help absorb the impact. The problem with track belts is that they are continually subjected to stretching under a) when you first buckle up, and and b) every time the brakes are applied hard. Over time, and especially after an incident or two, they can get stretched to the point where they'll no longer operate as designed, and without some stretch could allow more shock to transfer to the driver. I think this may also relate to how most belt companies provide re-webbing services; I'm guessing they send you back a new set, and test the old belts to see how much stretch remains to possibly re-use again.
In a street car, the belts aren't subjected to the same stress/stretch. The belts will cinch up under sufficient load. I've read that you should examine seat belts on a used car buy, to see if there's any tell-tale "burn" marks on the fabric which can result if the car was in an incident. If the belt has obviously been subjected to an incident load, replacement should be considered. Otherwise, the belts don't stretch very much, although UV degradation is a separate concern.
In a street car, the belts aren't subjected to the same stress/stretch. The belts will cinch up under sufficient load. I've read that you should examine seat belts on a used car buy, to see if there's any tell-tale "burn" marks on the fabric which can result if the car was in an incident. If the belt has obviously been subjected to an incident load, replacement should be considered. Otherwise, the belts don't stretch very much, although UV degradation is a separate concern.
03-15-2013, 04:44 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
My understanding of harness wear is that in a track car, the belts are always tight. But in order to work properly, they have a certain amount of stretch in the them to help absorb the impact. The problem with track belts is that they are continually subjected to stretching under a) when you first buckle up, and and b) every time the brakes are applied hard. Over time, and especially after an incident or two, they can get stretched to the point where they'll no longer operate as designed, and without some stretch could allow more shock to transfer to the driver. I think this may also relate to how most belt companies provide re-webbing services; I'm guessing they send you back a new set, and test the old belts to see how much stretch remains to possibly re-use again.
In a street car, the belts aren't subjected to the same stress/stretch. The belts will cinch up under sufficient load. I've read that you should examine seat belts on a used car buy, to see if there's any tell-tale "burn" marks on the fabric which can result if the car was in an incident. If the belt has obviously been subjected to an incident load, replacement should be considered. Otherwise, the belts don't stretch very much, although UV degradation is a separate concern.
In a street car, the belts aren't subjected to the same stress/stretch. The belts will cinch up under sufficient load. I've read that you should examine seat belts on a used car buy, to see if there's any tell-tale "burn" marks on the fabric which can result if the car was in an incident. If the belt has obviously been subjected to an incident load, replacement should be considered. Otherwise, the belts don't stretch very much, although UV degradation is a separate concern.
Not even close. At the forces a belt are subjected to and the amount of stretch belts are capable of we don't even come close to ever seeing the stretch you'll see in these belts. If that were the case, use a kevlar nomex belt with literally zero stretch and we should never have to replace those. The greatest "stretch" is your soft tissue.....
Racing belts are the biggest single margin item you are buying. Webbing they use is the same stuff that is used in the fall protection business. It's about $1 a yard. All of the buckles are produced in China for less than $10 for everything (thats a Schroth or Sparco release not the cheap one). 10 minutes of sewing on a Directron sewing machine ($12,000) and a guaranteed income stream of replacement every 5 years.....
Why would we ever want this rule to change.....
I used thousands of yards a week, did hundreds of drop tests a year.....and yes we did destructive UV testing as most of our equipment is on guys in the sun or on oil rigs for hours a day.
03-15-2013, 05:39 PM
#19
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03-15-2013, 06:32 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Yep, it's pretty silly if you ask me and only certain clubs enforce that rule, Potomac PCA for one. I was at an event and had my Schroth HANS harness expire the previous month and they wouldn't let me use them. I was flabbergasted and annoyed considering they don't get that much use.
Instead, I was able to go out without my HANS device and use my factory 17 y/o seat belt. Now that's some flawed logic if you ask me.
Instead, I was able to go out without my HANS device and use my factory 17 y/o seat belt. Now that's some flawed logic if you ask me.
03-15-2013, 06:57 PM
#21
Perfect Angel
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I don't think there are all that many people in our area who wouldn't freely admit to avoiding Potomac events for a variety of reasons. I've got my own "...huh?" story, but what you just described is so completely asinine that I honestly have trouble justifying my membership.
I've run with Potomac since 2005 and have never experienced anything like this. The CI's, Tech guys and all the volunteers work hard to put on a quality event. They run a tight ship. I've lost track time at other events due to a lack of organization. I've never had that happen at a POT DE.
If your harnesses are expiring and you've teched the car you should have changed them prior to the event. End of story. The other poster knew the date they needed to be changed and tried to squeak by. Not Potomac's fault. He got caught. Harnesses are available at the track store for your convenience.
The rule may be silly, and I agree 100% that it is, but it's the rule until it's changed.
03-15-2013, 09:08 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Many of our DE and amateur safety requirements have a basis which is blended between some science, some experience and liability. Sure some materials degrade over time with and without UV exposure. And on the liability side, suppose that you are the insurance company for Schroth or GForce, You might want them to have dating on their products.
The PCA Golden Gate Region has folllowed the harness SFI and FIA dating labels for many, many years in DE events. And have required cotter pins or other fixtures for snap in fittings for decades. For many DE drivers, this lead to purchasing good products like GForce camlocks with FIA dating, then when necessary selling those at maybe 50% of new to an AX driver and buying new belts. I myself practiced this approach back in the day, with GForce belts I bought for $150 new, and could sell many years later for $75-100 to an AX driver. Not really a big deal financially.
Sure all of this is different from DOT belts, but the use case and liability issues are obviously different. If the harness business was so rich with margins, we'd have many, many more choices and much lower prices due to competition.
These days there are many $200+ choices for belts, and the more expensive sets have features that may be valuable to some racers.
I have been doing DE and racing stuff in Porsches for 25+ years. I have lost friends and acquaintances to accidents at the track. I have friends and acquaintances that have been involved in litigation.
It is all a balancing act. But I don't think the strongest components in the blend have to do with fat margins and ongoing revenue. Those things do not represent strong barriers to entry.
The PCA Golden Gate Region has folllowed the harness SFI and FIA dating labels for many, many years in DE events. And have required cotter pins or other fixtures for snap in fittings for decades. For many DE drivers, this lead to purchasing good products like GForce camlocks with FIA dating, then when necessary selling those at maybe 50% of new to an AX driver and buying new belts. I myself practiced this approach back in the day, with GForce belts I bought for $150 new, and could sell many years later for $75-100 to an AX driver. Not really a big deal financially.
Sure all of this is different from DOT belts, but the use case and liability issues are obviously different. If the harness business was so rich with margins, we'd have many, many more choices and much lower prices due to competition.
These days there are many $200+ choices for belts, and the more expensive sets have features that may be valuable to some racers.
I have been doing DE and racing stuff in Porsches for 25+ years. I have lost friends and acquaintances to accidents at the track. I have friends and acquaintances that have been involved in litigation.
It is all a balancing act. But I don't think the strongest components in the blend have to do with fat margins and ongoing revenue. Those things do not represent strong barriers to entry.
03-15-2013, 09:12 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
And I doubt any sanctioning bodies are driven by manufacturers. They seem to be driven by competitors (trying to capture and keep racers), lawyers and insurance company reps.
03-16-2013, 11:59 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Interesting comment.
I've run with Potomac since 2005 and have never experienced anything like this. The CI's, Tech guys and all the volunteers work hard to put on a quality event. They run a tight ship. I've lost track time at other events due to a lack of organization. I've never had that happen at a POT DE.
If your harnesses are expiring and you've teched the car you should have changed them prior to the event. End of story. The other poster knew the date they needed to be changed and tried to squeak by. Not Potomac's fault. He got caught. Harnesses are available at the track store for your convenience.
The rule may be silly, and I agree 100% that it is, but it's the rule until it's changed.
I've run with Potomac since 2005 and have never experienced anything like this. The CI's, Tech guys and all the volunteers work hard to put on a quality event. They run a tight ship. I've lost track time at other events due to a lack of organization. I've never had that happen at a POT DE.
If your harnesses are expiring and you've teched the car you should have changed them prior to the event. End of story. The other poster knew the date they needed to be changed and tried to squeak by. Not Potomac's fault. He got caught. Harnesses are available at the track store for your convenience.
The rule may be silly, and I agree 100% that it is, but it's the rule until it's changed.
For my own part, I was initially told that I had to attend the clinic before any DE's because track time with other organizations or regions, regardless of run group, solo status, etc., "didn't count." It's a strange sort of arrogrance - mixed with selective enforcement. You're either in the club or you're not, I guess.
My experience was put to bed by a past president - for whom I have the utmost respect and who is definately the exception to the rule - by stepping in on the clinic issue.
But to tell a driver he can't go out during a DE with harness/HANS equipment which was expired for a month in favor of 17-year old, factory seatbelts? Come on. That red car is a known quantity, as is the driver. Tracked 993's arent all that common, here. Most people bring the latest and greatest GT/RS toy and scrub around on Hoosiers with nary an eye on their rear view mirror.
The difference between Potomac and my previous region is night and day. The former seems to promote an aura of exclusivity while the latter was accomodating, welcoming and helpful in every way.
Specific to the portion you boldfaced, the other organizations which run locally are filled with PCA-certified instructors and even ex-professional drivers who will openly bash the region as soon as they see the car, if it's for the first time.
Last edited by Stuttgart951; 03-16-2013 at 12:20 PM.
03-16-2013, 12:45 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
It's not complicated.
Street car manufacturers test and get approvals on their equipment based on DOT requirements that have no expiration date.
Racing harness manufacturers test and get approvals for their equipment based on sanctioning body requirements (SFI and FIA being most prevalent) which require them to be safe and tested for a minimum lifespan (3 and 5 years respectively) since there is no standard for a longer period and they won't comply with a DOT standard they are the only approvals you can get. There is no impetus for a race belt mfgr to get a longer lifespan approved, a whole new standard would have to be written...
Since you only have those approvals and ratings they by default are the standards that are adapted by other orgs (PCA, NASA, SCCA etc...) there really isn't any other choice. Relaxing requirements opens up all kinds of liability issues even though most belts are made with the same ASTM materials as street cars...
Street car manufacturers test and get approvals on their equipment based on DOT requirements that have no expiration date.
Racing harness manufacturers test and get approvals for their equipment based on sanctioning body requirements (SFI and FIA being most prevalent) which require them to be safe and tested for a minimum lifespan (3 and 5 years respectively) since there is no standard for a longer period and they won't comply with a DOT standard they are the only approvals you can get. There is no impetus for a race belt mfgr to get a longer lifespan approved, a whole new standard would have to be written...
Since you only have those approvals and ratings they by default are the standards that are adapted by other orgs (PCA, NASA, SCCA etc...) there really isn't any other choice. Relaxing requirements opens up all kinds of liability issues even though most belts are made with the same ASTM materials as street cars...
03-16-2013, 02:39 PM
#26
Race Car
A couple of comments:
1. The national PCA is really pushing current belts for DE's, it isn't the regions: clubrace12@peachstatepca.org see section 4, paragraph 1, last sentence. So don't knock one specific region, it isn't the region.
2. I am in 100% agreement with the notion that UV light will kill harnesses. However, before PCA started enforcing the current harnes thing, we oculd use old ones. And I did. And those suckers were STIFF. It was pretty difficult to get them pulled down tight. Now that I have new ones, it is MUCH easier to do it. Yeah, they are Schroth versus I think Sparco, but I do think age has a bit to do with it, as I've used a few others in other cars.
Overall, I think it is pretty silly. But, I do think new harnesses are a bit safer because it is easier to adjust them. This is one rule that I think causes a more dangerous situation, and there is another that isn't a rule but is very highly stressed that I believe does the same (though there is a whole lot more controversy with that one).
1. The national PCA is really pushing current belts for DE's, it isn't the regions: clubrace12@peachstatepca.org see section 4, paragraph 1, last sentence. So don't knock one specific region, it isn't the region.
2. I am in 100% agreement with the notion that UV light will kill harnesses. However, before PCA started enforcing the current harnes thing, we oculd use old ones. And I did. And those suckers were STIFF. It was pretty difficult to get them pulled down tight. Now that I have new ones, it is MUCH easier to do it. Yeah, they are Schroth versus I think Sparco, but I do think age has a bit to do with it, as I've used a few others in other cars.
Overall, I think it is pretty silly. But, I do think new harnesses are a bit safer because it is easier to adjust them. This is one rule that I think causes a more dangerous situation, and there is another that isn't a rule but is very highly stressed that I believe does the same (though there is a whole lot more controversy with that one).
03-16-2013, 03:08 PM
#27
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With all the money we blow on our cars, the harness every 5 years are the least of my worries (expenses?).
03-16-2013, 05:21 PM
#28
Perfect Angel
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But to tell a driver he can't go out during a DE with harness/HANS equipment which was expired for a month in favor of 17-year old, factory seatbelts? Come on. That red car is a known quantity, as is the driver. Tracked 993's arent all that common, here. Most people bring the latest and greatest GT/RS toy and scrub around on Hoosiers with nary an eye on their rear view mirror.
The difference between Potomac and my previous region is night and day. The former seems to promote an aura of exclusivity while the latter was accomodating, welcoming and helpful in every way.
Specific to the portion you boldfaced, the other organizations which run locally are filled with PCA-certified instructors and even ex-professional drivers who will openly bash the region as soon as they see the car, if it's for the first time.
The difference between Potomac and my previous region is night and day. The former seems to promote an aura of exclusivity while the latter was accomodating, welcoming and helpful in every way.
Specific to the portion you boldfaced, the other organizations which run locally are filled with PCA-certified instructors and even ex-professional drivers who will openly bash the region as soon as they see the car, if it's for the first time.
It's pretty straight forward. The belts were expired. The driver knew it. I would bet that he got hurty feelings because he didn't get special treatment as a "known quantity." I've always had to have current harnesses and so should everyone else.
What happens when the "known quantity" stuffs his car into the tires in the chute and his widow sues? You can bet that the car will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. See the Carrera GT case from CA for reference. Ambulance chasing attorneys and insurance companies are always looking for a pay day.
15 minutes in the paddock to change the harness. That's all. Suck it up. Why risk future events for everyone else?
03-18-2013, 09:54 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
Not even close. At the forces a belt are subjected to and the amount of stretch belts are capable of we don't even come close to ever seeing the stretch you'll see in these belts. If that were the case, use a kevlar nomex belt with literally zero stretch and we should never have to replace those. The greatest "stretch" is your soft tissue.....
Racing belts are the biggest single margin item you are buying. Webbing they use is the same stuff that is used in the fall protection business. It's about $1 a yard. All of the buckles are produced in China for less than $10 for everything (thats a Schroth or Sparco release not the cheap one). 10 minutes of sewing on a Directron sewing machine ($12,000) and a guaranteed income stream of replacement every 5 years.....
Why would we ever want this rule to change.....
I used thousands of yards a week, did hundreds of drop tests a year.....and yes we did destructive UV testing as most of our equipment is on guys in the sun or on oil rigs for hours a day.
Racing belts are the biggest single margin item you are buying. Webbing they use is the same stuff that is used in the fall protection business. It's about $1 a yard. All of the buckles are produced in China for less than $10 for everything (thats a Schroth or Sparco release not the cheap one). 10 minutes of sewing on a Directron sewing machine ($12,000) and a guaranteed income stream of replacement every 5 years.....
Why would we ever want this rule to change.....
I used thousands of yards a week, did hundreds of drop tests a year.....and yes we did destructive UV testing as most of our equipment is on guys in the sun or on oil rigs for hours a day.
http://simpsonraceproducts.com/safet...tandard-nylon/
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct...e/viewall.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/seatb.html
http://www.schrothracing.com/sdocs/2...structions.pdf
03-18-2013, 09:56 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
What the hell does any of that even mean?
It's pretty straight forward. The belts were expired. The driver knew it. I would bet that he got hurty feelings because he didn't get special treatment as a "known quantity." I've always had to have current harnesses and so should everyone else.
What happens when the "known quantity" stuffs his car into the tires in the chute and his widow sues? You can bet that the car will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. See the Carrera GT case from CA for reference. Ambulance chasing attorneys and insurance companies are always looking for a pay day.
15 minutes in the paddock to change the harness. That's all. Suck it up. Why risk future events for everyone else?
It's pretty straight forward. The belts were expired. The driver knew it. I would bet that he got hurty feelings because he didn't get special treatment as a "known quantity." I've always had to have current harnesses and so should everyone else.
What happens when the "known quantity" stuffs his car into the tires in the chute and his widow sues? You can bet that the car will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. See the Carrera GT case from CA for reference. Ambulance chasing attorneys and insurance companies are always looking for a pay day.
15 minutes in the paddock to change the harness. That's all. Suck it up. Why risk future events for everyone else?