DE Helmet rules, I'm looking to further the rules for safety
02-15-2013, 05:58 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
^ First Scott, that's not what I said. Go back and read my posts. Second, as I alluded to, the dynamics of head injury are a lot more complicated than simply the reductionist role of helmet design and age, and - to repeat myself clearly for you - within a reasonable range of helmet age, I don't believe it matters a great deal. It is easy to look at helmet stickers and much more time consuming to actually know something.
02-15-2013, 06:42 PM
#48
Matt,
This is what you said:
"When's the last time a 2000 vs. 2010 helmet made a measurable difference in the clinical outcome of a significant head injury mechanism? As long as the structure is intact, it's all baloney, smoke and mirrors, and litigation-driven-angst-posturing."
It sure sounds like you are saying that helmet age and design don't matter. According to you, a 13 year old design with a 13 year old EPS liner is always going to be as good as a a brand new helmet.
If the EPS liner is in perfect condition, you are probably right. How do you tell if the EPS liner is in good shape. Has the helmet been treated harshly or gently for all of that time? Can you tell that from looking at the shell? No, you can't. How has the helmet designed been improved in those 13 years?
It's not "all baloney, smoke and mirrors, and litigation-driven-angst-posturing."
Scott
This is what you said:
"When's the last time a 2000 vs. 2010 helmet made a measurable difference in the clinical outcome of a significant head injury mechanism? As long as the structure is intact, it's all baloney, smoke and mirrors, and litigation-driven-angst-posturing."
It sure sounds like you are saying that helmet age and design don't matter. According to you, a 13 year old design with a 13 year old EPS liner is always going to be as good as a a brand new helmet.
If the EPS liner is in perfect condition, you are probably right. How do you tell if the EPS liner is in good shape. Has the helmet been treated harshly or gently for all of that time? Can you tell that from looking at the shell? No, you can't. How has the helmet designed been improved in those 13 years?
It's not "all baloney, smoke and mirrors, and litigation-driven-angst-posturing."
Scott
02-15-2013, 06:47 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
Yup, that's what I said, with key emphasis on differences in clinical outcomes (hint). I can't bang my head against the wall on this anymore (helmet joke). You know what you know.
02-16-2013, 12:19 PM
#50
Race Director
Curt,
If you race dirt tracks like a lot of racers in upstate NY your helmet is only good for 5 years from the date of manufactured. They look at sa2010 and then look at the date built. If it has been 5 years it is no longer valid because of the wear and tear of the foam and the outside structure wear. If someone has had a incident then the belts and helmet should be replaced without a question. If a helmet you are checking has chips I would question it. if it had a crack I would tell them to buy a new helmet before they do a DE. The helmet is the most important safety item you wear so there is no excuse.
Steve
If you race dirt tracks like a lot of racers in upstate NY your helmet is only good for 5 years from the date of manufactured. They look at sa2010 and then look at the date built. If it has been 5 years it is no longer valid because of the wear and tear of the foam and the outside structure wear. If someone has had a incident then the belts and helmet should be replaced without a question. If a helmet you are checking has chips I would question it. if it had a crack I would tell them to buy a new helmet before they do a DE. The helmet is the most important safety item you wear so there is no excuse.
Steve
Wayne (Redline Editor)
02-16-2013, 03:05 PM
#51
1. The skull alone offers no protection = 0%
2. A living breathing bald guy offers = 2% protection
3. A guy with a full head of hair = 5 % protection
4. An Afro Haircut (70s Vintage) = 7 % protection
5. A holloween spaceman helmet = 6 % protection
6. A standard bicycle helmet = 65.667 protection
7. An NFL nose tackle helmet = 97% protection
8. A snell 2000 helmet = 94% protection
9. A snell 2005 helmet = 95 % protection
10. A snell 2010 helmet = 95.386% protection
All the tests were perfomed double blind and the procedures used was to give a series of questions to a given group of personal injury attorneys. Then groups of 100 were given a specific helmet to wear and then they were subjected to 100 blows to the head with a 4 foot long section of roll bar tubing. Then we asked them again a series of questions. The most injured went on to become divorce attorneys.
2. A living breathing bald guy offers = 2% protection
3. A guy with a full head of hair = 5 % protection
4. An Afro Haircut (70s Vintage) = 7 % protection
5. A holloween spaceman helmet = 6 % protection
6. A standard bicycle helmet = 65.667 protection
7. An NFL nose tackle helmet = 97% protection
8. A snell 2000 helmet = 94% protection
9. A snell 2005 helmet = 95 % protection
10. A snell 2010 helmet = 95.386% protection
All the tests were perfomed double blind and the procedures used was to give a series of questions to a given group of personal injury attorneys. Then groups of 100 were given a specific helmet to wear and then they were subjected to 100 blows to the head with a 4 foot long section of roll bar tubing. Then we asked them again a series of questions. The most injured went on to become divorce attorneys.
02-18-2013, 10:40 AM
#53
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
All this helmet prattle about shaving hairs off the bald guy. Please don’t loose sight of the goal safe DE events. Does anyone think that during a wreck the spread between the impact safety of a SA2000 and an SA2010 will matter over all the other factors? I hate to see a DE tech person spending so much time on trying to see if there is hidden damage to a fiberglass shell filled with Styrofoam. He is on the tech line looking at the helmet pulling the liner to see if someone swapped the sticker? (BTW the Snell stickers are tamper proof and the word VOID shows if you pull them) Spending time on something that has proven to be a non-issue rather than looking at the many things that have been PROVEN time and again to fail and cause drivers problems on track. The list of known things that will cause problems is long and does not include a helmet with hidden damage or slightly older than the newest. Does any region or group test the boiling point of brake fluid? There are simple, fast accurate testers. Cooking brakes is a common on track DE failure. I did Tech for 9 years as an inspector or chair and I know that some DE drivers lie about the age of the fluid. I tested some cars in the tech lines that I felt were not being maintained well and found plenty that were well below spec. One was at 230 deg boil point and the owner of the mid 70s 911 with the 993 motor was insisting that the fluid had been changed. I also know of at least 4 DE wrecks that were 100% caused by boiled fluid and loss of control. One caused a T bone and the instructor in the impacted car was injured.
Does anyone have any data at all of a helmet failure in a DE or CR? I know of a strap rivet that crusted up and came loose on a high end $$$ in date helmet but that data goes counter to the prevailing saw of the best and latest.
I often see people that want to check and make rules about what is easy to legislate. “Oh look, it has a date code on it! This will be easy to write a rule about rather than the harder but truly prevalent things that are happening on track.” Once you finish covering things that have been shown to matter then look at things that have not been shown to matter.
Does anyone have any data at all of a helmet failure in a DE or CR? I know of a strap rivet that crusted up and came loose on a high end $$$ in date helmet but that data goes counter to the prevailing saw of the best and latest.
I often see people that want to check and make rules about what is easy to legislate. “Oh look, it has a date code on it! This will be easy to write a rule about rather than the harder but truly prevalent things that are happening on track.” Once you finish covering things that have been shown to matter then look at things that have not been shown to matter.
02-18-2013, 10:43 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
^^^ THIS ^^^
02-18-2013, 01:35 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
I often see people that want to check and make rules about what is easy to legislate. “Oh look, it has a date code on it! This will be easy to write a rule about rather than the harder but truly prevalent things that are happening on track.” Once you finish covering things that have been shown to matter then look at things that have not been shown to matter.
02-18-2013, 05:09 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
I contacted PCA National and they said since we are at their min standards we are good. But i want to add this to the rules and regulations.
We are NOT responsible for helmets that have been in incidents previous to our events. If you have had an incident in which your helmet has been involved and have not made it clear to us with a written and signed statement we CANNOT be held responsible. Any incident that occurs at our event involving your helmet needs to be brought to our attention immediately, failure to comply with this regulation will get your *** kicked out of our event, Bitches. So there. We reserve the right to refuse any helmet we deem unsafe, even if it meets the minimum standards.
Maybe the bitches part is too much.....
We are NOT responsible for helmets that have been in incidents previous to our events. If you have had an incident in which your helmet has been involved and have not made it clear to us with a written and signed statement we CANNOT be held responsible. Any incident that occurs at our event involving your helmet needs to be brought to our attention immediately, failure to comply with this regulation will get your *** kicked out of our event, Bitches. So there. We reserve the right to refuse any helmet we deem unsafe, even if it meets the minimum standards.
Maybe the bitches part is too much.....
And please ignore the suggestion above to harass people with scratched helmets. It you did that to me, I'd either laugh in your face or cuss you out depending on my mood, but if I were a nOOb I'd be a bit intimidated and put off by the sheer stupidity of it.
02-18-2013, 05:15 PM
#57
I often see people that want to check and make rules about what is easy to legislate. “Oh look, it has a date code on it! This will be easy to write a rule about rather than the harder but truly prevalent things that are happening on track.” Once you finish covering things that have been shown to matter then look at things that have not been shown to matter.
I agree with the idea that there are things that matter more than helmet age that are not really checked all that well. As you pointed out, people can and will lie about brake fluid. But, that doesn't mean it is somehow illogical to write rules about things that are easier to legislate. That's flawed logic.
Scott
02-18-2013, 06:49 PM
#58
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Yes, a subjective debate about whether a 'damaged' helmet is acceptable could make for an ugly scene at the track, especially considering what people spend to attend a DE. I'm not suggesting ignoring cases where a helmet is clearly unacceptable, but need some latitude when getting into the wide gray zone.
02-18-2013, 09:52 PM
#59
Drifting
Thread Starter
OK, OK, sorry guys, geezzz....
Talked with National and it stays as is, PCA min standards. A DE Tech asked me to look into it and I have. The more words I put into it the more liable we become. So less is better.
Yes I'm the Registrar and the Helmet Checker, been doing it since 2005, never seen a helmet issue yet, but I stress yet.
And i completely agree about more important issues, had a guy with a 2007 911 drop in early morning day of the event and forgot his tech form. Easy enough in the morning I'll inspect the car for the form shouldn't be too bad since its only 5 years old, just started looking it over, front wheels covered in mud: "Yeah I slipped off the road doing a K-turn on the way here" OK? As I inspected further a chunk out of the tire side wall the size of a quarter and a chunk out of the wheel. "Sorry you need a new wheel and tire, before I can continue the inspection. Goodbye" Some people have No idea what they are getting into.
I've also had a senior instructor come to me for a helmet sticker, SA 1980's. Sorry No Dice. "But its my head...." Rules is Rules and it seems some may never learn.
Talked with National and it stays as is, PCA min standards. A DE Tech asked me to look into it and I have. The more words I put into it the more liable we become. So less is better.
Yes I'm the Registrar and the Helmet Checker, been doing it since 2005, never seen a helmet issue yet, but I stress yet.
And i completely agree about more important issues, had a guy with a 2007 911 drop in early morning day of the event and forgot his tech form. Easy enough in the morning I'll inspect the car for the form shouldn't be too bad since its only 5 years old, just started looking it over, front wheels covered in mud: "Yeah I slipped off the road doing a K-turn on the way here" OK? As I inspected further a chunk out of the tire side wall the size of a quarter and a chunk out of the wheel. "Sorry you need a new wheel and tire, before I can continue the inspection. Goodbye" Some people have No idea what they are getting into.
I've also had a senior instructor come to me for a helmet sticker, SA 1980's. Sorry No Dice. "But its my head...." Rules is Rules and it seems some may never learn.
02-19-2013, 10:56 AM
#60
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Kurt,
I agree with the idea that there are things that matter more than helmet age that are not really checked all that well. As you pointed out, people can and will lie about brake fluid. But, that doesn't mean it is somehow illogical to write rules about things that are easier to legislate. That's flawed logic.
Scott
I agree with the idea that there are things that matter more than helmet age that are not really checked all that well. As you pointed out, people can and will lie about brake fluid. But, that doesn't mean it is somehow illogical to write rules about things that are easier to legislate. That's flawed logic.
Scott
No one mentioned fit in all of this. How well the helmet fits matters far more than it being an SA2000 or an SA 2010. We look at the bucket and hand it back. Does it even fit on the intended user? A poor fitting helmet can reduce vision and increase brain impact loads seen.
How about paint? No one brought that one up ether. Some paints have solvents that can damage some shell resins. As there is almost no way to tell if the paints use are OK on the helmet painted we should ban all non stock paint both DE and CR.
Omg, I dropped my helmet on the ground. Now I need to have it inspected at the factory? It is a fiberglass shell with a styrofoam impact absorber. Does anyone think that enough damage to a fiberglass shell to matter can be hidden or that you can rot out styrofoam with sweat and suntan lotion?
In the mean time the guy with the 9XX with 15+ year old rubber brake lines that look good is pulling up on the grid and an instructor is getting ready to hop in the right seat. Brake lines don't have date tags and can fail from the inside out.