DE Safety Gear
01-23-2013, 01:47 PM
#61
You could start with a welded half-cage. That would allow you to safely mount harnesses and proper racing seats while still keeping it capable of every day street duty. You can even keep the interior otherwise looking stock if you wish.
Then, when you become hopelessly addicted, you can convert the half-cage to a full cage, gut the interior, and trailer it to the track.
Then, when you become hopelessly addicted, you can convert the half-cage to a full cage, gut the interior, and trailer it to the track.
The weld in 1/2 cage certainly offers the option of expansion to a full cage but once in it's going to be pretty costly to change it to non sunroof height which sort of goes w/the idea of a full cage, ie you are making major track oriented changes to the car like removing the sunroof.
If you retain it, 3 point belt attachment can also be an issue w/ a welded in cage, it depends on the placement of the tubes but bolt ins like DAS retain the 3 point function w/o issue.
The weld in does have advantages, lighter and less space consuming than a bolt in and it will add greater stiffness to the chassis as well as the previously mentioned expansion possibility.
I wouldn't want to drive around w/ a full cage and w/o a helmet though.
01-23-2013, 02:23 PM
#62
Three Wheelin'
Alright, since this thread is still going I'll post some pictures. I'm hesitant to do this as track cars driven to events are always a compromise, so I'm opening myself up for ridicule and flaming I'm sure.
Pictures were not all taken at the same time, so some shots were before I equipped the passenger side with a harness and also show the old monte carlo steering wheel I ran with a spacer, not the dished mod 07 I now run without a spacer (both on quick release). I've been running this safety setup for a few years and have been happy with it, going to a HANS and halo style seat give me some peace of mind, even if it is false security compared to a proper setup. Note I run 3 point belts on the street.
Pictures were not all taken at the same time, so some shots were before I equipped the passenger side with a harness and also show the old monte carlo steering wheel I ran with a spacer, not the dished mod 07 I now run without a spacer (both on quick release). I've been running this safety setup for a few years and have been happy with it, going to a HANS and halo style seat give me some peace of mind, even if it is false security compared to a proper setup. Note I run 3 point belts on the street.
01-23-2013, 03:13 PM
#63
Drifting
Ok, what am I missing it says 2.5 mile course and 3.1 mile course right? So how can the straight be 1 mile long?
I'm taking my chances in Black Solo with No gloves, a good helmet and No nomex "skinny wrestling type" shoes. I just drive slow and let everyone pass till I can afford more of the safety equipment or another car that already has it. Yes its unsafe, but that's what life insurance is for, wouldn't be half as much fun if there was no risk, right..... Just kidding.
Yes anything can happen anywhere. I could be doing 75 on the highway and blow-out a tire when my car is loaded up with the stuff i trek back and forth to the track with and a wheel could take my head off. Yes that would be my fault but its the risk I take. DE's are not "Safe" but you can safe yourself with safety gear for when the inevitable happens.
In my case, good helmet, (buy a car already done and safe yourself the money/fun of building) or get seats/harness, then H/N and roll bar.
Anyone have a lead on a prepped BMW e30 M3, starting slow of course.....
I'm taking my chances in Black Solo with No gloves, a good helmet and No nomex "skinny wrestling type" shoes. I just drive slow and let everyone pass till I can afford more of the safety equipment or another car that already has it. Yes its unsafe, but that's what life insurance is for, wouldn't be half as much fun if there was no risk, right..... Just kidding.
Yes anything can happen anywhere. I could be doing 75 on the highway and blow-out a tire when my car is loaded up with the stuff i trek back and forth to the track with and a wheel could take my head off. Yes that would be my fault but its the risk I take. DE's are not "Safe" but you can safe yourself with safety gear for when the inevitable happens.
In my case, good helmet, (buy a car already done and safe yourself the money/fun of building) or get seats/harness, then H/N and roll bar.
Anyone have a lead on a prepped BMW e30 M3, starting slow of course.....
01-23-2013, 03:52 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
From the BIR website:
The ground off the edge of the track is generally smooth, except for rutted runoff areas at the exit of Turns 2 and 3, curbs on the outsides of the exits of Turns 4 through 8, and ditches and low (two- to three-foot) banks six or eight feet off the right-hand edge of the track coming into Turns 4 and 7. The mile-long straightaway, which doubles as BIR’s drag strip, was replaced in 2004 and is now one of the flattest and fastest pieces of pavement on the planet.
...
Your car’s top speed at BIR will be limited by aerodynamics and power, rather than by torque and weight as at slower tracks. You should be able to attain your top speed before entering Turn 1, and may be able to reach it again coming into Turn 2 and possibly into Turn 3. Maintaining a high speed in this part of the course is crucial to good lap times. Just be sure not to overstress your engine. You will be spending a lot of time at max revs, and turning hard right, so be sure your oil pickup is properly located.
...
Your car’s top speed at BIR will be limited by aerodynamics and power, rather than by torque and weight as at slower tracks. You should be able to attain your top speed before entering Turn 1, and may be able to reach it again coming into Turn 2 and possibly into Turn 3. Maintaining a high speed in this part of the course is crucial to good lap times. Just be sure not to overstress your engine. You will be spending a lot of time at max revs, and turning hard right, so be sure your oil pickup is properly located.
01-23-2013, 06:40 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
chrenan, what rollbar is that? I'm not a huge fan of the way it's mounted into the upper bolt for the seat belts.
Granted, my car is welded into place, but if you don't think you're ever going to put back seats in again, that's the way to go...
Granted, my car is welded into place, but if you don't think you're ever going to put back seats in again, that's the way to go...
01-23-2013, 06:55 PM
#68
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chrenan-
You should put split ring collars on the roll bar to locate the harness shoulder straps. Put them outboard of the furthest point where the wrap should be able to migrate. That way you minimize the chance of a shoulder strap sliding off a shoulder.
Also, not a big fan of the passenger not having the same safety as the driver. As an instructor I personally would not climb into this car- no harness, different seats for the passenger, questionable harness bar hardware.
You should put split ring collars on the roll bar to locate the harness shoulder straps. Put them outboard of the furthest point where the wrap should be able to migrate. That way you minimize the chance of a shoulder strap sliding off a shoulder.
Also, not a big fan of the passenger not having the same safety as the driver. As an instructor I personally would not climb into this car- no harness, different seats for the passenger, questionable harness bar hardware.
01-23-2013, 07:18 PM
#69
Three Wheelin'
Its a Heigo club sport bar, they are located in Kist near Stuttgart.
Thanks for the tip on the split ring collars, will do that.
As I said above, some pictures are before I had a matching six point harness on the passenger side. Both now have matching Scroth harnesses (you can just see this in the second picture) and stock belts available if the harness mounting isn't to the passengers liking.
chrenan-
You should put split ring collars on the roll bar to locate the harness shoulder straps. Put them outboard of the furthest point where the wrap should be able to migrate. That way you minimize the chance of a shoulder strap sliding off a shoulder.
Also, not a big fan of the passenger not having the same safety as the driver. As an instructor I personally would not climb into this car- no harness, different seats for the passenger, questionable harness bar hardware.
You should put split ring collars on the roll bar to locate the harness shoulder straps. Put them outboard of the furthest point where the wrap should be able to migrate. That way you minimize the chance of a shoulder strap sliding off a shoulder.
Also, not a big fan of the passenger not having the same safety as the driver. As an instructor I personally would not climb into this car- no harness, different seats for the passenger, questionable harness bar hardware.
As I said above, some pictures are before I had a matching six point harness on the passenger side. Both now have matching Scroth harnesses (you can just see this in the second picture) and stock belts available if the harness mounting isn't to the passengers liking.
Last edited by chrenan; 01-23-2013 at 07:55 PM.
01-23-2013, 08:36 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
You could start with a welded half-cage. That would allow you to safely mount harnesses and proper racing seats while still keeping it capable of every day street duty. You can even keep the interior otherwise looking stock if you wish.
Then, when you become hopelessly addicted, you can convert the half-cage to a full cage, gut the interior, and trailer it to the track.
Then, when you become hopelessly addicted, you can convert the half-cage to a full cage, gut the interior, and trailer it to the track.
As for hopeless addiction, I'm already there but sadly my wallet is not (yet)
Alright, since this thread is still going I'll post some pictures. I'm hesitant to do this as track cars driven to events are always a compromise, so I'm opening myself up for ridicule and flaming I'm sure.
Pictures were not all taken at the same time, so some shots were before I equipped the passenger side with a harness and also show the old monte carlo steering wheel I ran with a spacer, not the dished mod 07 I now run without a spacer (both on quick release). I've been running this safety setup for a few years and have been happy with it, going to a HANS and halo style seat give me some peace of mind, even if it is false security compared to a proper setup. Note I run 3 point belts on the street.
Pictures were not all taken at the same time, so some shots were before I equipped the passenger side with a harness and also show the old monte carlo steering wheel I ran with a spacer, not the dished mod 07 I now run without a spacer (both on quick release). I've been running this safety setup for a few years and have been happy with it, going to a HANS and halo style seat give me some peace of mind, even if it is false security compared to a proper setup. Note I run 3 point belts on the street.
Thanks!
01-23-2013, 09:52 PM
#71
Three Wheelin'
It was a while back, but I remember shipping being pricey, and I purposely waited for a favourable Canadian exchange rate. I want to say 200 euros or similar? I'd need to look.
I dealt with Heigo directly via email. If you send an email to info at heigo.de with the name Günter Rossius in the subject line, he speaks a good amount of English if you keep things simple and clear. He can quote you on build price, options and shipping. The wait times are long to have them built but the shipping is very quick.
I dealt with Heigo directly via email. If you send an email to info at heigo.de with the name Günter Rossius in the subject line, he speaks a good amount of English if you keep things simple and clear. He can quote you on build price, options and shipping. The wait times are long to have them built but the shipping is very quick.
01-23-2013, 11:56 PM
#72
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The problem I have with the upper bolt mount design is, all the potential stress the bolts will see (fore and aft) are in shear (weakest direction for said bolts) and not against the bolt head in tension. Do you know what grade the bolts are, and are they protected against shear?
The seat issue is still a problem, your passenger deserves a halo seat if the driver has one.
Cheers.
The seat issue is still a problem, your passenger deserves a halo seat if the driver has one.
Cheers.
01-24-2013, 09:46 AM
#73
Three Wheelin'
The problem I have with the upper bolt mount design is, all the potential stress the bolts will see (fore and aft) are in shear (weakest direction for said bolts) and not against the bolt head in tension. Do you know what grade the bolts are, and are they protected against shear?
The seat issue is still a problem, your passenger deserves a halo seat if the driver has one.
Cheers.
The seat issue is still a problem, your passenger deserves a halo seat if the driver has one.
Cheers.
I'm not an engineer so shear loading is not my area of expertise. From my basic and very dated physics knowledge I remember if an assembly is tight enough, depending on arrangement, then there may be no shear stress because friction is transferring the load. I'm sure that's not the case here, but from the pain of installing those upper bolts I'm hopeful it's at least better than an alternative scenario where an assembly is not tight and the clearances are not close which adds bending stresses to the situation. I do remember that the bolts are the same style as seatbelt bolts, with a long unthreaded portion where the shear load is placed, no shear loading on threads.
Here's some technical information that Heigo sent with the bar for those interested in brushing up on their German...
Last edited by chrenan; 01-24-2013 at 11:41 AM.
01-24-2013, 11:50 AM
#74
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Yeah, I'd swap out those bolts pronto if it were me. Here's a quick read on bolt strength- http://www.rockcrawler.com/techrepor...ners/index.asp
01-24-2013, 01:48 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
Stronger is better. I look at this setup as a solid place to mount belts, in my opinion in a rollover only a true welded in and properly designed complete cage is going to help - not an option for me on a street driven car however. Even a welded in roll bar provides no A pillar protection in a roll. So really I'm looking to protect myself in the most likely track accident, shunting into something forward, sideways or backwards. I tend to agree with Kurt...
Essentially, I'm not expecting rollover protection from this setup. I am expecting it to hold belts in the more likely non-rollover impact which is why your suggestion on split ring collars is such a good one and will be done immediately. On upgrading the bolts, estimating at 1/2 inch:
Grade..............................5..........8
Tension Capability..(lb)...13338...16673
Shear Capability....(lb)...11270...13680
So we're talking about the shoulder straps generating enough force to shear the bolts. At either the grade 5 or grade 8 level of force require, let's be honest, I'm ****ed anyway, no? Again, I'm not an engineer so I really don't know, buying from reputable companies is the best thing many of us can do in terms of safety, we can't all be experts. Its a cheap fix for sure, but does it actually do anything?
As for matching driver/passenger seats I couldn't agree more, its the next budgetted step.
Plan on hitting a tire wall. It happens and happens enough for those in the know to take actions to reduce the medical downsides when it happens. Flipping the car in a DE not so likely. Flipping the car and denting in the roof in a DE is down right rare. Catching fire in a street car in a DE is also very rare. The last two are so rare that they end up on the interwebz and cause much chatter when they happen. Wadding a 9XX into the tires during a DE not so much.
Grade..............................5..........8
Tension Capability..(lb)...13338...16673
Shear Capability....(lb)...11270...13680
So we're talking about the shoulder straps generating enough force to shear the bolts. At either the grade 5 or grade 8 level of force require, let's be honest, I'm ****ed anyway, no? Again, I'm not an engineer so I really don't know, buying from reputable companies is the best thing many of us can do in terms of safety, we can't all be experts. Its a cheap fix for sure, but does it actually do anything?
As for matching driver/passenger seats I couldn't agree more, its the next budgetted step.