DB_NC_95C2

But Vettel deserves to be there ? top 10 of ALL TIME ?

His 2010 title was a gift from lousy Ferrari strategy that was marking Webber instead of letting Alonso go for the best finish he could on a crap track, in 2011 nobody could touch Newey's car, and this year I'll say he deserved it because when the car was right nobody could touch him.

Of course there is no way to prove it, but I wager if Alonso had won the 2010 title and he had the 3-peat he'd be on the list instead of Vettel.

If I had a choice of a lead driver whose job was more than just 'get in and drive' but also included developing a car, extracting every bit the crap car had, I'd hire Alonso instead of Vettel. Look at who the team principles voted best driver this year. I would imagine those guys know about bit more about F1 than I, you, or anyone else in this forum.

ltc

Sir A. Wayne .... Luis de Prat .... Raj .....

And the newest in a long line of Alonso athletic supporters.... DB_NC_95C2

Perfect timing. 2013 is the year Alonso wins the WDC.
Watch the C32 in February....

DB_NC_95C2

great, I defend Fernando's skills and express a belief that his accomplishments deserve a top-10 spot as well as Vettel'ss and I'm a jock-sniffer....

kindly kiss my a**, no apologies offered for the attitude or the expression

I'd be ok with Sebastian and Fernando both on the top 10 list, and I wouldn't care which order they're in.

multi21

I never mentioned Vettel, didn't defend or endorse the choice to be in the top 10, only commented on Alonso because the ballwashers (not my choice of words, but the words of the President of the Alonso Fan Club, US District) go nuts over something like this.

Now, if you ask ME, if Vettel should be in the top 10 all time, I say no. Yes youngest WDC, youngest 3 time winner etc is great, but he has only done it in a Newey car under favorable rule conditions where there is an engine freeze and other rules that DO NOT allow for major changes like in the past in effort to reduce costs. Give Vettel credit, because the Red Bull doesn't drive itself and we can see that a below average driver like Mark Webber can't drive the car worth $hit, BUT, lets see what he can do in another team, another car before we way greatest of all time.

Finally, the team principals were asked who drove the BEST in 2012, not over a 60 year period of F1 sport. My choice would be Alonso over Vettel also for 2012 only.

ltc

IMHO, Vettel belongs in the Top 10 discussion, based solely on statistics and cv.
Youngest 3x WDC, 3x WDC in a row (re: Schumacher and Fangio) is merit enough.
There is no consideration given to "who designed the car" or "what rules were in place" or "who had the best team/biggest budget" or "who arranged for their teammate to crash" in these types of discussions.

Now, in the case of Alonso, I believe he should be in the discussion, as IIRC, he is the SECOND youngest WDC in F1 history.

BTW what is it with Alonso and always being SECOND ?

Disclaimer: it is a well established fact that I AM the US President of the Takuma Sato F1 Fan Club, so I am not a Vettel supporter.
If forced to chose any driver in F1 today, the answer has always been consistent: "Anyone except Alonso"

multi21

Sure it does.. this is all a matter of opinion and in a lot of peoples mind, they want to see if Vettel can do what he does in a car that is not Newey produced.

Each driver can be looked at as having advantages and disadvantages in their particular era dating back to Fangio jumping in someone elses car at the end of a race and getting points to the Senna/Prost dropped race points era.

The jury is still out on Vettel and whether he decides to stay with Red Bull or go elsewhere after this year. The fact that there has been a virtual development freeze over the past few years is significant in my mind as Vettel has not had to adapt to many new things and when he did, (ie the removal of the blown diffuser earlier this year), he struggled.

Unlike the much talked about V6 turbo engines coming in 2014, there has been little discussion on what could be the 2nd most important change to the regulations for next year. Today, teams have the luxury of choosing between 30+ gear ratios for their car on particular tracks. That all goes away next year with what is now being discusses as only 8 gear ratios available. Even if Vettel stays with RBR, adaptation to the turbo and gear ratios is going to be a challenge.

Not hating on Vettel, but IMO his legacy is yet to be determined.

paradisenb

Geez, Pete. Get real! If Newey were the difference Mark Webber would have gotten one of the last 3 titles. What did he do? Stunk the track up 2 of the 3 years.
Check and compare Vettel's stats:
How many Poles
How many Wins
How many Fastest Laps
How many WDC
His list of accomplishments is long and he is still very young. Didn't he get Toro Roso's first ever win? IIRC he was only a teenager.

Alonsa. Sheez!!!! The couldda, shouldda, wouldda man, but DIDN'T.

Eifeler

Yes but I'm sure the moon was full, Alonso had a headache and every other top driver had strategy or tire problems.

Hopefully at least the BS about Vettel only being able to drive/win from the front has finally been put to bed.

RajDatta

THIS is what is called an apologist. Making excuses for why Alonso won. Alonso also had a dnf that yr from his crew not tightened the wheels at Hungaroring. **** happens. Its called racing.

RajDatta

You will get to understand these people soon. They have blinders on. Mr Lower Thinking and Comprehension is probably the greatest hater I have ever seen. Must make a great role model for others.

Pete, is another Schumi worshiper and apologist.

You will start to understand the pecking order.

Oh BTW, Mr LTC is probably also the biggest coward on these forums. He waited until after the season ended to crawl out from under the rock so he could gloat about Alonso losing. Pathetic!

Since Alonso was ahead most of the season, he shy'ed away like a little girl.

ltc

Shirley you can't be serious....
Actually, I didn't watch much F1 this season, as I was too busy flying my planes after a 30plus year absence from the sport.

I seem to remember Abu Dhabi 2010.
DV was leading the WDC going into that race by 13 points? Webber 2nd and a Vettel 3rd.

I seem to recall me stating, on the record, if Alonso won the 2010 WDC, I would leave Rennlist permanently....and if Alonso lost the WDC, you were going to do what exactly?
I can go back and repost excerpts from that thread if you prefer.

But not to worry, 2013 is definitely the year for Alonso. The odds of continuing to finish 2nd are in his favor.
He has a contract thru 2016 and we all know Luca would never dump a former WDC from Ferrari for the next best thing....

multi21

Welcome back Raj and happy New Year. It's always fun to have you and Lewis in the mix at the same time, hopefully that will be the case for 2013. I like to see myself as a realist, not an agologist, but thank you.

To Randy, Webber is way past his expiration date and just highlights that the RBR car does not drive itself. I'm giving Vettel credit, but I just wouldn't put him in the top 10 of all time just yet. When it's all said and done he could have more titles than Schumacher and one could say that he belongs at the top of the list let alone the top 10. All I'm saying is that it's too early to tell.

ltc

Actually I consider Pete to be the most unbiased an accurate contributor to RL F1 discussions.
And we all know Larry Hermann is the resident adult for RL F1 discussions.

ltc

Sorry Pete, but I'm afraid the Raj will have to soldier on by himself.
I've lived long enough to see Vettel win 3 consecutive WDC and Alonso lose 3 WDC.

It's been a good ride and you always want to go out on top.
It is encouraging to know that Karma is real ... Just ask DV.

9.5 Degrees

+1 on Pete. He is both passionate and accurate which some of us on rennlist have a hard time with which results on us being biased toward our favorite or least favorite drivers. Pete is a triple threat.

Haven't seen Larry in awhile. Did A Wayne get to him too?