Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Some interesting safety info

 
Old 12-02-2012, 02:17 PM
  #16  
fatbillybob
User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I fell for S21 SA2005 helmet. thing that clips visor down fell off, seal around visor comes unglued, rubbery stuff on chin strap fractures and strap frays and inside helmet fabric stains and frays from poor sewing of seams. I always wear a headsock too. Now have Simpson CF devil ray SA2010 with totally superior finish but questionable manufacture in china? Some are made there and some are not. Will the new S21's stand up to mild use? Keep us posted on durability!
fatbillybob is online now  
Old 12-02-2012, 06:59 PM
  #17  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 9,630
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
I fell for S21 SA2005 helmet. thing that clips visor down fell off, seal around visor comes unglued, rubbery stuff on chin strap fractures and strap frays and inside helmet fabric stains and frays from poor sewing of seams. I always wear a headsock too. Now have Simpson CF devil ray SA2010 with totally superior finish but questionable manufacture in china? Some are made there and some are not. Will the new S21's stand up to mild use? Keep us posted on durability!
I would suggest calling them. They were very helpful and have all the parts for the helmets, so maybe they can help you out. I specifically asked about chin straps and Franck pulled a bag of them out. Same as all the liners - all removable for replacement or washing. Give them a call and see if they can help.

I tried to have a person from Simpson try and fit a helmet to me. He was not nearly as involved. Told me it should feel tight everywhere.


Originally Posted by E55AMG View Post
I had always wondered what made one helmet better than another. They all pass standards but what were the differences? I know some are lighter than others but nice to know that there are some differences.

Also, as a bit of a newcomer to this sport, can I get some more details on the 5 pt. vs. 6 pt. situation? Reading "talk in a higher octave" I think I know some more details would be helpful though.
According to Dr. Melvin, in the mid 90's (?) Nascar drivers were all breaking their sternum and ribs when they crashed, yet no Indy drivers where. They found that just by changing to a 6 point belt it changed how they harness pull and no one has broken a sternum or rib (from the harnesses) since. He also said that six point belts are not quiet as good at keeping you tight in the seat when you turtle, which is important if you don't have a lot of head clearance. he said in those circumstances you should run a 7 point.

Also very interesting - the idea that the crotch strap in a 5 point harness is to keep you from going under the harnesses is wrong. That belt was developed by the Air Force for inverted flight - not crashes.
Matt Romanowski is offline  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:12 PM
  #18  
winders
Super User
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski View Post
Also very interesting - the idea that the crotch strap in a 5 point harness is to keep you from going under the harnesses is wrong. That belt was developed by the Air Force for inverted flight - not crashes.
Exactly how does the crotch strap help in inverted flight?

It's called a "Negative G Strap" because deceleration causes negative G's. It's not related to inverted flight.

Look here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3964158

Specifically:

"Adding the negative G strap to either restraint system had clearly beneficial effects. These included decreasing the tendency toward submarining in forward-facing impacts, providing better occupant-seat coupling during free falls, and improving vertical impact protection."

Scott
winders is offline  
Old 12-02-2012, 08:04 PM
  #19  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 9,630
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by winders View Post
Exactly how does the crotch strap help in inverted flight?

It's called a "Negative G Strap" because deceleration causes negative G's. It's not related to inverted flight.

Look here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3964158

Specifically:

"Adding the negative G strap to either restraint system had clearly beneficial effects. These included decreasing the tendency toward submarining in forward-facing impacts, providing better occupant-seat coupling during free falls, and improving vertical impact protection."

Scott
Hey Scott - I'm just repeating what he said. He said the 5th point helps to hold your lap belts down and keep you in the seat. I'm not the expert, just repeating what he told us. Here is some background info on Dr. John Melvin:

http://www.racinggoessafer.com/
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/column...rry&id=3199468
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar..._ed&id=6116145
Matt Romanowski is offline  
Old 12-02-2012, 08:07 PM
  #20  
fatbillybob
User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski View Post
I would suggest calling them. They were very helpful and have all the parts for the helmets, so maybe they can help you out. I specifically asked about chin straps and Franck pulled a bag of them out. Same as all the liners - all removable for replacement or washing. Give them a call and see if they can help.

I tried to have a person from Simpson try and fit a helmet to me. He was not nearly as involved. Told me it should feel tight everywhere.

Also very interesting - the idea that the crotch strap in a 5 point harness is to keep you from going under the harnesses is wrong. That belt was developed by the Air Force for inverted flight - not crashes.
When I wore the S21 I knew nothing just bought the best of its day. I did not know that stuff was not supposed to fall apart. I'm amazed by my Simpson. And LOL Simpson staff are pretty worthless. I think I now more about their product line than they do.

Dr. Melvin is a great guy so easy to talk to truely interested in making sure we all get educated answering the same questions I'm sure a million times. The funny thing about anti-substraps is that they are more properly called lapbelt retention straps. The substrap holds the laps so that the laps can be in the proper place controling the pelvis and that makes for proper anti-sub effect. To further refine your knowledge look into V, T, formula style and schroth hybrid substaps and you'll find the hybrids the way to go for function and comfort.
fatbillybob is online now  
Old 12-02-2012, 08:14 PM
  #21  
fatbillybob
User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Oh did the S21 guy say anything about glove design and reducing the steam issue? My gloves always are wet by the end of the day. Carbon-x is also supposed to be better for reducing steam burns than nomex by your skin. The lame thing about carbon-x is that it is black. A few minutes in the sun walking around the paddock and you are fying. we need light colored carbon-x.
fatbillybob is online now  
Old 12-02-2012, 09:19 PM
  #22  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 9,630
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
Oh did the S21 guy say anything about glove design and reducing the steam issue? My gloves always are wet by the end of the day. Carbon-x is also supposed to be better for reducing steam burns than nomex by your skin. The lame thing about carbon-x is that it is black. A few minutes in the sun walking around the paddock and you are fying. we need light colored carbon-x.
It was Dr. Trammell that did the glove thing and no, he didn't mention a way to reduce the chance. His big thing was to wear nomex or carbonx underwear, regardless of your suit. I can see if I can email him and ask?
Matt Romanowski is offline  
Old 12-02-2012, 09:41 PM
  #23  
winders
Super User
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski View Post
Hey Scott - I'm just repeating what he said. He said the 5th point helps to hold your lap belts down and keep you in the seat. I'm not the expert, just repeating what he told us.
I would imagine that if the lap belts need assistance from the Negative G Strap to be held down in inverted flight, the lap and shoulder bets are not tight enough.

But, what do I know? It just doesn't sound like a plausible reason. The study I quoted sounds much more plausible.

Scott
winders is offline  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:28 AM
  #24  
morsini
User
 
morsini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bawston
Posts: 1,314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Hey Matt,

Thanks for taking the time to pass on this info and engage in the discussion. There's some really helpful info here!
morsini is offline  
Old 12-03-2012, 10:23 AM
  #25  
kurt M
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
 
kurt M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Fallschurch Va
Posts: 5,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski View Post
.......Seats are much more important than you though. You need a seat that holds your legs, pelvis, and shoulders. Holding your chest might make you feel good, but it's not important and might only help break your ribs. While SFI 39.1 seats are the best, you can make other seats perform better. SFI also has a standard for harness mounting and how to work with your seat.

Now, back to helmets - while any helmet that passes the current Snell test is considered equal by Snell, they really are not. Stand 21 is the only company that uses a polypropolene inner shell versus the standard polystyrene. What this means is that a regular helmet does not recover from an impact. The polystyrene compresses and stays compressed. It is also not that strong. You can crush a shell with our hands. The Stand21 shell recovers (you can't dent it) and it WAY stronger. I couldn't crush it with my hands!

Stand21 also has the best fitting program of any helmet company. I went to everyone (Stilo, Bell, Simpson, HJC, etc) and no one can make a helmet fit like Stand21. They build the helmet to your head with multiple starting outer and inner shell sizes, different front and rear comfort pads, different top pads, and different cheak pads (comfort and protection). They will also customize for glasses, radios, drink, etc.

I used to think that their stuff was simply overpriced, but after checking everyone's equipment out it really is the best. No doubt. My next helmet will be a Stand21. I took the 20 minutes to get measured and fitted today.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it was important info worth sharing.
Thanks for posting this up! This is good stuff and an area with great room for improvement IMO. I still see many cars from basic to high dollar built that are not taking advantage of the much improved systems we have available to us now.

Are helmets for the most part all well past the "It works to do what is needed" point? This is to say in a high G hard off angle wreck a good fitting but standard grade helmet will protect your head past the point that the rest of you is mush. If you look at the overall numbers it is realistic to conclude that to get the basic grade helmet into a true real world failure mode you likely have gone well past the human body survival point as far as G forces encountered by the rest of the human. Helmet A is tested to "90", helmet B is tested to "120". Lethal for the rest of the human is "60". It is good to use the best, more so if it means less weight and better fit for same protection, if it is within reach but try not to focus hard on numbers in a single safety point when it is only useful as part of a system. A $$$ helmet that “goes to 11” does little when coupled with an inferior restraint system. Restraint is far more than X# of belt points, it is also the seat and all that is around the seat that makes up a driver cocoon. Helmets are fun in a way you get to paint them up if you like and have something for paddock show and tell. Seating systems are not as easy as they involve a lot of things that vary from car to car. Spending $$$ on a new top of the line helmet when you have a good one now rather than the money being spent on improving a basic seating system might have no increase is safety. There is a lot of stuff that is good but much of what was good is now overshadowed by setups that are far better. I think seating systems is an area where there is a lot of room to truly improve driver safety.
kurt M is offline  
Old 12-03-2012, 10:32 AM
  #26  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 9,630
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by kurt M View Post
Thanks for posting this up! This is good stuff and an area with great room for improvement IMO. I still see many cars from basic to high dollar built that are not taking advantage of the much improved systems we have available to us now.

Are helmets for the most part all well past the "It works to do what is needed" point? This is to say in a high G hard off angle wreck a good fitting but standard grade helmet will protect your head past the point that the rest of you is mush. If you look at the overall numbers it is realistic to conclude that to get the basic grade helmet into a true real world failure mode you likely have gone well past the human body survival point as far as G forces encountered by the rest of the human. Helmet A is tested to "90", helmet B is tested to "120". Lethal for the rest of the human is "60". It is good to use the best, more so if it means less weight and better fit for same protection, if it is within reach but try not to focus hard on numbers in a single safety point when it is only useful as part of a system. A $$$ helmet that “goes to 11” does little when coupled with an inferior restraint system. Restraint is far more than X# of belt points, it is also the seat and all that is around the seat that makes up a driver cocoon. Helmets are fun in a way you get to paint them up if you like and have something for paddock show and tell. Seating systems are not as easy as they involve a lot of things that vary from car to car. Spending $$$ on a new top of the line helmet when you have a good one now rather than the money being spent on improving a basic seating system might have no increase is safety. There is a lot of stuff that is good but much of what was good is now overshadowed by setups that are far better. I think seating systems is an area where there is a lot of room to truly improve driver safety.
All true from what Dr. Melvin said. If you have a proper fitting helmet, you are most of the way in the "helmet department." Then, the seat and restraints are critical. A good demonstration in seats is the new SFI 38.1 and 38.2 seats for aluminum and composites (carbon fiber), respectfully. The seats that meet that spec are substantial and for good reason. The loads that go to a seat are huge!

Also, I forgot to mention right side nets. They are important even with a containment seat. Your head will come out of the containment. Even the simple two strap setups are effective. And the front needs to be mounted in a way that when the center net moves it does not pop out of the release. Dr. Melvin suggested mounting it to another peice of strap.
Matt Romanowski is offline  
Old 12-05-2012, 11:50 AM
  #27  
stownsen914
User
 
stownsen914's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ossining, NY
Posts: 964
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mklaskin View Post
Last thought; anyone ask why none of the current F1 drivers wear a Stand 21 helmet? Mostly Arai and Bell CF helmets on the grid, where the safety standards are amongst the highest (if not the highest).
Very interesting point. I wonder if the F1 guys get specially constructed/fitted helmets from Arai and/or Bell, similar to what it sounds like Stand21 provides to us mortals.

Scott
stownsen914 is offline  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:06 PM
  #28  
Plavan
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Plavan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mcongleton View Post
This season I bought my co driver a Stand 21 team suit and he said it is the most comfortable suit he has ever worn.
Mark
Need a new co driver there pal.... buddy?
Plavan is offline  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:45 PM
  #29  
Racerrob
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Racerrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Great info in this thread, thanks!

I am not understanding the steam burns from the gloves? They were already burned from the steam and became worse when she gripped the wheel? I have several pair of gloves, maybe I will start rotating them through the weekend.

Dont a bunch of F1 guys where those 50K Schubert helmets?
Racerrob is offline  
Old 12-05-2012, 01:09 PM
  #30  
GuyIncognito
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
GuyIncognito's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: FL
Posts: 2,986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

hey Matt! It was nice to meet you at that seminar. Unfortunately my schedule required me to leave before the end

I thought the orthopedist from the Mayo Clinic was really interesting as well. She presented on head injuries in motocross, it was fascinating and terrifying how many people have concussions and don't treat them well, and how frequently they end up in the hospital with other injuries because they lose focus from their previous head injury.

also a lot of helmets (IIRC 75-80%?) were not fitted properly make sure your helmet fits, racers!

and I'll give a big +1 to Jaques Dallaire, he's an exceptional person with a great program for performance psychology.
GuyIncognito is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Some interesting safety info


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: