Some interesting safety info
#16
I fell for S21 SA2005 helmet. thing that clips visor down fell off, seal around visor comes unglued, rubbery stuff on chin strap fractures and strap frays and inside helmet fabric stains and frays from poor sewing of seams. I always wear a headsock too. Now have Simpson CF devil ray SA2010 with totally superior finish but questionable manufacture in china? Some are made there and some are not. Will the new S21's stand up to mild use? Keep us posted on durability!
#17
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I fell for S21 SA2005 helmet. thing that clips visor down fell off, seal around visor comes unglued, rubbery stuff on chin strap fractures and strap frays and inside helmet fabric stains and frays from poor sewing of seams. I always wear a headsock too. Now have Simpson CF devil ray SA2010 with totally superior finish but questionable manufacture in china? Some are made there and some are not. Will the new S21's stand up to mild use? Keep us posted on durability!
I tried to have a person from Simpson try and fit a helmet to me. He was not nearly as involved. Told me it should feel tight everywhere.
I had always wondered what made one helmet better than another. They all pass standards but what were the differences? I know some are lighter than others but nice to know that there are some differences.
Also, as a bit of a newcomer to this sport, can I get some more details on the 5 pt. vs. 6 pt. situation? Reading "talk in a higher octave" I think I know some more details would be helpful though.
Also, as a bit of a newcomer to this sport, can I get some more details on the 5 pt. vs. 6 pt. situation? Reading "talk in a higher octave" I think I know some more details would be helpful though.
Also very interesting - the idea that the crotch strap in a 5 point harness is to keep you from going under the harnesses is wrong. That belt was developed by the Air Force for inverted flight - not crashes.
#18
Race Car
It's called a "Negative G Strap" because deceleration causes negative G's. It's not related to inverted flight.
Look here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3964158
Specifically:
"Adding the negative G strap to either restraint system had clearly beneficial effects. These included decreasing the tendency toward submarining in forward-facing impacts, providing better occupant-seat coupling during free falls, and improving vertical impact protection."
Scott
#19
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Exactly how does the crotch strap help in inverted flight?
It's called a "Negative G Strap" because deceleration causes negative G's. It's not related to inverted flight.
Look here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3964158
Specifically:
"Adding the negative G strap to either restraint system had clearly beneficial effects. These included decreasing the tendency toward submarining in forward-facing impacts, providing better occupant-seat coupling during free falls, and improving vertical impact protection."
Scott
It's called a "Negative G Strap" because deceleration causes negative G's. It's not related to inverted flight.
Look here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3964158
Specifically:
"Adding the negative G strap to either restraint system had clearly beneficial effects. These included decreasing the tendency toward submarining in forward-facing impacts, providing better occupant-seat coupling during free falls, and improving vertical impact protection."
Scott
http://www.racinggoessafer.com/
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/column...rry&id=3199468
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar..._ed&id=6116145
#20
I would suggest calling them. They were very helpful and have all the parts for the helmets, so maybe they can help you out. I specifically asked about chin straps and Franck pulled a bag of them out. Same as all the liners - all removable for replacement or washing. Give them a call and see if they can help.
I tried to have a person from Simpson try and fit a helmet to me. He was not nearly as involved. Told me it should feel tight everywhere.
Also very interesting - the idea that the crotch strap in a 5 point harness is to keep you from going under the harnesses is wrong. That belt was developed by the Air Force for inverted flight - not crashes.
I tried to have a person from Simpson try and fit a helmet to me. He was not nearly as involved. Told me it should feel tight everywhere.
Also very interesting - the idea that the crotch strap in a 5 point harness is to keep you from going under the harnesses is wrong. That belt was developed by the Air Force for inverted flight - not crashes.
Dr. Melvin is a great guy so easy to talk to truely interested in making sure we all get educated answering the same questions I'm sure a million times. The funny thing about anti-substraps is that they are more properly called lapbelt retention straps. The substrap holds the laps so that the laps can be in the proper place controling the pelvis and that makes for proper anti-sub effect. To further refine your knowledge look into V, T, formula style and schroth hybrid substaps and you'll find the hybrids the way to go for function and comfort.
#21
Oh did the S21 guy say anything about glove design and reducing the steam issue? My gloves always are wet by the end of the day. Carbon-x is also supposed to be better for reducing steam burns than nomex by your skin. The lame thing about carbon-x is that it is black. A few minutes in the sun walking around the paddock and you are fying. we need light colored carbon-x.
#22
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Oh did the S21 guy say anything about glove design and reducing the steam issue? My gloves always are wet by the end of the day. Carbon-x is also supposed to be better for reducing steam burns than nomex by your skin. The lame thing about carbon-x is that it is black. A few minutes in the sun walking around the paddock and you are fying. we need light colored carbon-x.
#23
Race Car
But, what do I know? It just doesn't sound like a plausible reason. The study I quoted sounds much more plausible.
Scott
#25
Mr. Excitement
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.......Seats are much more important than you though. You need a seat that holds your legs, pelvis, and shoulders. Holding your chest might make you feel good, but it's not important and might only help break your ribs. While SFI 39.1 seats are the best, you can make other seats perform better. SFI also has a standard for harness mounting and how to work with your seat.
Now, back to helmets - while any helmet that passes the current Snell test is considered equal by Snell, they really are not. Stand 21 is the only company that uses a polypropolene inner shell versus the standard polystyrene. What this means is that a regular helmet does not recover from an impact. The polystyrene compresses and stays compressed. It is also not that strong. You can crush a shell with our hands. The Stand21 shell recovers (you can't dent it) and it WAY stronger. I couldn't crush it with my hands!
Stand21 also has the best fitting program of any helmet company. I went to everyone (Stilo, Bell, Simpson, HJC, etc) and no one can make a helmet fit like Stand21. They build the helmet to your head with multiple starting outer and inner shell sizes, different front and rear comfort pads, different top pads, and different cheak pads (comfort and protection). They will also customize for glasses, radios, drink, etc.
I used to think that their stuff was simply overpriced, but after checking everyone's equipment out it really is the best. No doubt. My next helmet will be a Stand21. I took the 20 minutes to get measured and fitted today.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it was important info worth sharing.
Now, back to helmets - while any helmet that passes the current Snell test is considered equal by Snell, they really are not. Stand 21 is the only company that uses a polypropolene inner shell versus the standard polystyrene. What this means is that a regular helmet does not recover from an impact. The polystyrene compresses and stays compressed. It is also not that strong. You can crush a shell with our hands. The Stand21 shell recovers (you can't dent it) and it WAY stronger. I couldn't crush it with my hands!
Stand21 also has the best fitting program of any helmet company. I went to everyone (Stilo, Bell, Simpson, HJC, etc) and no one can make a helmet fit like Stand21. They build the helmet to your head with multiple starting outer and inner shell sizes, different front and rear comfort pads, different top pads, and different cheak pads (comfort and protection). They will also customize for glasses, radios, drink, etc.
I used to think that their stuff was simply overpriced, but after checking everyone's equipment out it really is the best. No doubt. My next helmet will be a Stand21. I took the 20 minutes to get measured and fitted today.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it was important info worth sharing.
Are helmets for the most part all well past the "It works to do what is needed" point? This is to say in a high G hard off angle wreck a good fitting but standard grade helmet will protect your head past the point that the rest of you is mush. If you look at the overall numbers it is realistic to conclude that to get the basic grade helmet into a true real world failure mode you likely have gone well past the human body survival point as far as G forces encountered by the rest of the human. Helmet A is tested to "90", helmet B is tested to "120". Lethal for the rest of the human is "60". It is good to use the best, more so if it means less weight and better fit for same protection, if it is within reach but try not to focus hard on numbers in a single safety point when it is only useful as part of a system. A $$$ helmet that “goes to 11” does little when coupled with an inferior restraint system. Restraint is far more than X# of belt points, it is also the seat and all that is around the seat that makes up a driver cocoon. Helmets are fun in a way you get to paint them up if you like and have something for paddock show and tell. Seating systems are not as easy as they involve a lot of things that vary from car to car. Spending $$$ on a new top of the line helmet when you have a good one now rather than the money being spent on improving a basic seating system might have no increase is safety. There is a lot of stuff that is good but much of what was good is now overshadowed by setups that are far better. I think seating systems is an area where there is a lot of room to truly improve driver safety.
#26
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Thanks for posting this up! This is good stuff and an area with great room for improvement IMO. I still see many cars from basic to high dollar built that are not taking advantage of the much improved systems we have available to us now.
Are helmets for the most part all well past the "It works to do what is needed" point? This is to say in a high G hard off angle wreck a good fitting but standard grade helmet will protect your head past the point that the rest of you is mush. If you look at the overall numbers it is realistic to conclude that to get the basic grade helmet into a true real world failure mode you likely have gone well past the human body survival point as far as G forces encountered by the rest of the human. Helmet A is tested to "90", helmet B is tested to "120". Lethal for the rest of the human is "60". It is good to use the best, more so if it means less weight and better fit for same protection, if it is within reach but try not to focus hard on numbers in a single safety point when it is only useful as part of a system. A $$$ helmet that “goes to 11” does little when coupled with an inferior restraint system. Restraint is far more than X# of belt points, it is also the seat and all that is around the seat that makes up a driver cocoon. Helmets are fun in a way you get to paint them up if you like and have something for paddock show and tell. Seating systems are not as easy as they involve a lot of things that vary from car to car. Spending $$$ on a new top of the line helmet when you have a good one now rather than the money being spent on improving a basic seating system might have no increase is safety. There is a lot of stuff that is good but much of what was good is now overshadowed by setups that are far better. I think seating systems is an area where there is a lot of room to truly improve driver safety.
Are helmets for the most part all well past the "It works to do what is needed" point? This is to say in a high G hard off angle wreck a good fitting but standard grade helmet will protect your head past the point that the rest of you is mush. If you look at the overall numbers it is realistic to conclude that to get the basic grade helmet into a true real world failure mode you likely have gone well past the human body survival point as far as G forces encountered by the rest of the human. Helmet A is tested to "90", helmet B is tested to "120". Lethal for the rest of the human is "60". It is good to use the best, more so if it means less weight and better fit for same protection, if it is within reach but try not to focus hard on numbers in a single safety point when it is only useful as part of a system. A $$$ helmet that “goes to 11” does little when coupled with an inferior restraint system. Restraint is far more than X# of belt points, it is also the seat and all that is around the seat that makes up a driver cocoon. Helmets are fun in a way you get to paint them up if you like and have something for paddock show and tell. Seating systems are not as easy as they involve a lot of things that vary from car to car. Spending $$$ on a new top of the line helmet when you have a good one now rather than the money being spent on improving a basic seating system might have no increase is safety. There is a lot of stuff that is good but much of what was good is now overshadowed by setups that are far better. I think seating systems is an area where there is a lot of room to truly improve driver safety.
Also, I forgot to mention right side nets. They are important even with a containment seat. Your head will come out of the containment. Even the simple two strap setups are effective. And the front needs to be mounted in a way that when the center net moves it does not pop out of the release. Dr. Melvin suggested mounting it to another peice of strap.
#27
Three Wheelin'
Scott
#28
Rennlist Member
#29
Great info in this thread, thanks!
I am not understanding the steam burns from the gloves? They were already burned from the steam and became worse when she gripped the wheel? I have several pair of gloves, maybe I will start rotating them through the weekend.
Dont a bunch of F1 guys where those 50K Schubert helmets?
I am not understanding the steam burns from the gloves? They were already burned from the steam and became worse when she gripped the wheel? I have several pair of gloves, maybe I will start rotating them through the weekend.
Dont a bunch of F1 guys where those 50K Schubert helmets?
#30
hey Matt! It was nice to meet you at that seminar. Unfortunately my schedule required me to leave before the end
I thought the orthopedist from the Mayo Clinic was really interesting as well. She presented on head injuries in motocross, it was fascinating and terrifying how many people have concussions and don't treat them well, and how frequently they end up in the hospital with other injuries because they lose focus from their previous head injury.
also a lot of helmets (IIRC 75-80%?) were not fitted properly make sure your helmet fits, racers!
and I'll give a big +1 to Jaques Dallaire, he's an exceptional person with a great program for performance psychology.
I thought the orthopedist from the Mayo Clinic was really interesting as well. She presented on head injuries in motocross, it was fascinating and terrifying how many people have concussions and don't treat them well, and how frequently they end up in the hospital with other injuries because they lose focus from their previous head injury.
also a lot of helmets (IIRC 75-80%?) were not fitted properly make sure your helmet fits, racers!
and I'll give a big +1 to Jaques Dallaire, he's an exceptional person with a great program for performance psychology.