Some interesting safety info
12-01-2012, 09:28 PM
#1
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Some interesting safety info
Yesterday I went to a Safety Seminar put on by the Stand 21 Racing Safety Foundation. Before we get to any info, this is a huge effort put together (and funded) by Stand 21 founder & President Yves Morizot. I talked to him a good bit yesterday and again today - he's a great guy and really concerned with the safety or racers. He has passed this concern down through his whole company - a really great thing.
So, the speakers included Edward Becker (Executive Director of the Snell Foundation), Dr. Terry Trammell (consultant to Nascar, Indycar, F1, etc), and Dr. John Melvin (former Wayne State Researcher, GM Performance and Crash Center founder, Indycar Crash analyzer, Nascar Consultant, etc). There was a ton of good info, but here are a couple of things.
The Snell test only shows a pass or fail. With their testing equipment, there is no way to quantitify who passes better than anyone else. So in Snell's eyes, any helmet that passes the test is equal in quality. More on this later. Also, the FIA 8860 helmet spec is about 20% stronger than a Snell spec (it actually uses the Snell spec and then adds to it)
Wearing Nomex (still the best) or CarbonX underwear under any level of suit is critical. In your typical SFI 3.2A/5 suit, you get approx. 10 seconds until you get a second degree burn. Simply by adding underwear, you double the time to 20 seconds. Also, you're synthetic fiber shirts/underwear (Under Armour) are a really bad idea. They will melt before you would have any other burns and cause huge skin damage.
An interesing peice of info - in Simona de Silvestro's crash and burn, her hands were not burned by the fire. They were steam burned from the sweat in her gloves when she went to help remove the steering wheel!
Possibly the most interesting of the presenters was John Melvin. He is a wealth of knowledge and a PCA member and DE/Race driver! His studies of over 600 crashes in Indycar and decades in Nascar show that 5 point harnesses are not good. You will break your sternum in a significant crash and maybe talk a few octives higher. You really should have a six or seven point harness. Also, 2 inch belts are just as safe as 3 inch and take the same loads (not all 3 inches is used). Three inch belts were only ever chosen becuase with old materials you couldn't make a 2 inch belt strong enough.
Seats are much more important than you though. You need a seat that holds your legs, pelvis, and shoulders. Holding your chest might make you feel good, but it's not important and might only help break your ribs. While SFI 39.1 seats are the best, you can make other seats perform better. SFI also has a standard for harness mounting and how to work with your seat.
Now, back to helmets - while any helmet that passes the current Snell test is considered equal by Snell, they really are not. Stand 21 is the only company that uses a polypropolene inner shell versus the standard polystyrene. What this means is that a regular helmet does not recover from an impact. The polystyrene compresses and stays compressed. It is also not that strong. You can crush a shell with our hands. The Stand21 shell recovers (you can't dent it) and it WAY stronger. I couldn't crush it with my hands!
Stand21 also has the best fitting program of any helmet company. I went to everyone (Stilo, Bell, Simpson, HJC, etc) and no one can make a helmet fit like Stand21. They build the helmet to your head with multiple starting outer and inner shell sizes, different front and rear comfort pads, different top pads, and different cheak pads (comfort and protection). They will also customize for glasses, radios, drink, etc.
I used to think that their stuff was simply overpriced, but after checking everyone's equipment out it really is the best. No doubt. My next helmet will be a Stand21. I took the 20 minutes to get measured and fitted today.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it was important info worth sharing.
So, the speakers included Edward Becker (Executive Director of the Snell Foundation), Dr. Terry Trammell (consultant to Nascar, Indycar, F1, etc), and Dr. John Melvin (former Wayne State Researcher, GM Performance and Crash Center founder, Indycar Crash analyzer, Nascar Consultant, etc). There was a ton of good info, but here are a couple of things.
The Snell test only shows a pass or fail. With their testing equipment, there is no way to quantitify who passes better than anyone else. So in Snell's eyes, any helmet that passes the test is equal in quality. More on this later. Also, the FIA 8860 helmet spec is about 20% stronger than a Snell spec (it actually uses the Snell spec and then adds to it)
Wearing Nomex (still the best) or CarbonX underwear under any level of suit is critical. In your typical SFI 3.2A/5 suit, you get approx. 10 seconds until you get a second degree burn. Simply by adding underwear, you double the time to 20 seconds. Also, you're synthetic fiber shirts/underwear (Under Armour) are a really bad idea. They will melt before you would have any other burns and cause huge skin damage.
An interesing peice of info - in Simona de Silvestro's crash and burn, her hands were not burned by the fire. They were steam burned from the sweat in her gloves when she went to help remove the steering wheel!
Possibly the most interesting of the presenters was John Melvin. He is a wealth of knowledge and a PCA member and DE/Race driver! His studies of over 600 crashes in Indycar and decades in Nascar show that 5 point harnesses are not good. You will break your sternum in a significant crash and maybe talk a few octives higher. You really should have a six or seven point harness. Also, 2 inch belts are just as safe as 3 inch and take the same loads (not all 3 inches is used). Three inch belts were only ever chosen becuase with old materials you couldn't make a 2 inch belt strong enough.
Seats are much more important than you though. You need a seat that holds your legs, pelvis, and shoulders. Holding your chest might make you feel good, but it's not important and might only help break your ribs. While SFI 39.1 seats are the best, you can make other seats perform better. SFI also has a standard for harness mounting and how to work with your seat.
Now, back to helmets - while any helmet that passes the current Snell test is considered equal by Snell, they really are not. Stand 21 is the only company that uses a polypropolene inner shell versus the standard polystyrene. What this means is that a regular helmet does not recover from an impact. The polystyrene compresses and stays compressed. It is also not that strong. You can crush a shell with our hands. The Stand21 shell recovers (you can't dent it) and it WAY stronger. I couldn't crush it with my hands!
Stand21 also has the best fitting program of any helmet company. I went to everyone (Stilo, Bell, Simpson, HJC, etc) and no one can make a helmet fit like Stand21. They build the helmet to your head with multiple starting outer and inner shell sizes, different front and rear comfort pads, different top pads, and different cheak pads (comfort and protection). They will also customize for glasses, radios, drink, etc.
I used to think that their stuff was simply overpriced, but after checking everyone's equipment out it really is the best. No doubt. My next helmet will be a Stand21. I took the 20 minutes to get measured and fitted today.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it was important info worth sharing.
12-01-2012, 10:14 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Yesterday I went to a Safety Seminar put on by the Stand 21 Racing Safety Foundation. Before we get to any info, this is a huge effort put together (and funded) by Stand 21 founder & President Yves Morizot. I talked to him a good bit yesterday and again today - he's a great guy and really concerned with the safety or racers. He has passed this concern down through his whole company - a really great thing.
So, the speakers included Edward Becker (Executive Director of the Snell Foundation), Dr. Terry Trammell (consultant to Nascar, Indycar, F1, etc), and Dr. John Melvin (former Wayne State Researcher, GM Performance and Crash Center founder, Indycar Crash analyzer, Nascar Consultant, etc). There was a ton of good info, but here are a couple of things.
The Snell test only shows a pass or fail. With their testing equipment, there is no way to quantitify who passes better than anyone else. So in Snell's eyes, any helmet that passes the test is equal in quality. More on this later. Also, the FIA 8860 helmet spec is about 20% stronger than a Snell spec (it actually uses the Snell spec and then adds to it)
Wearing Nomex (still the best) or CarbonX underwear under any level of suit is critical. In your typical SFI 3.2A/5 suit, you get approx. 10 seconds until you get a second degree burn. Simply by adding underwear, you double the time to 20 seconds. Also, you're synthetic fiber shirts/underwear (Under Armour) are a really bad idea. They will melt before you would have any other burns and cause huge skin damage.
An interesing peice of info - in Simona de Silvestro's crash and burn, her hands were not burned by the fire. They were steam burned from the sweat in her gloves when she went to help remove the steering wheel!
Possibly the most interesting of the presenters was John Melvin. He is a wealth of knowledge and a PCA member and DE/Race driver! His studies of over 600 crashes in Indycar and decades in Nascar show that 5 point harnesses are not good. You will break your sternum in a significant crash and maybe talk a few octives higher. You really should have a six or seven point harness. Also, 2 inch belts are just as safe as 3 inch and take the same loads (not all 3 inches is used). Three inch belts were only ever chosen becuase with old materials you couldn't make a 2 inch belt strong enough.
Seats are much more important than you though. You need a seat that holds your legs, pelvis, and shoulders. Holding your chest might make you feel good, but it's not important and might only help break your ribs. While SFI 39.1 seats are the best, you can make other seats perform better. SFI also has a standard for harness mounting and how to work with your seat.
Now, back to helmets - while any helmet that passes the current Snell test is considered equal by Snell, they really are not. Stand 21 is the only company that uses a polypropolene inner shell versus the standard polystyrene. What this means is that a regular helmet does not recover from an impact. The polystyrene compresses and stays compressed. It is also not that strong. You can crush a shell with our hands. The Stand21 shell recovers (you can't dent it) and it WAY stronger. I couldn't crush it with my hands!
Stand21 also has the best fitting program of any helmet company. I went to everyone (Stilo, Bell, Simpson, HJC, etc) and no one can make a helmet fit like Stand21. They build the helmet to your head with multiple starting outer and inner shell sizes, different front and rear comfort pads, different top pads, and different cheak pads (comfort and protection). They will also customize for glasses, radios, drink, etc.
I used to think that their stuff was simply overpriced, but after checking everyone's equipment out it really is the best. No doubt. My next helmet will be a Stand21. I took the 20 minutes to get measured and fitted today.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it was important info worth sharing.
So, the speakers included Edward Becker (Executive Director of the Snell Foundation), Dr. Terry Trammell (consultant to Nascar, Indycar, F1, etc), and Dr. John Melvin (former Wayne State Researcher, GM Performance and Crash Center founder, Indycar Crash analyzer, Nascar Consultant, etc). There was a ton of good info, but here are a couple of things.
The Snell test only shows a pass or fail. With their testing equipment, there is no way to quantitify who passes better than anyone else. So in Snell's eyes, any helmet that passes the test is equal in quality. More on this later. Also, the FIA 8860 helmet spec is about 20% stronger than a Snell spec (it actually uses the Snell spec and then adds to it)
Wearing Nomex (still the best) or CarbonX underwear under any level of suit is critical. In your typical SFI 3.2A/5 suit, you get approx. 10 seconds until you get a second degree burn. Simply by adding underwear, you double the time to 20 seconds. Also, you're synthetic fiber shirts/underwear (Under Armour) are a really bad idea. They will melt before you would have any other burns and cause huge skin damage.
An interesing peice of info - in Simona de Silvestro's crash and burn, her hands were not burned by the fire. They were steam burned from the sweat in her gloves when she went to help remove the steering wheel!
Possibly the most interesting of the presenters was John Melvin. He is a wealth of knowledge and a PCA member and DE/Race driver! His studies of over 600 crashes in Indycar and decades in Nascar show that 5 point harnesses are not good. You will break your sternum in a significant crash and maybe talk a few octives higher. You really should have a six or seven point harness. Also, 2 inch belts are just as safe as 3 inch and take the same loads (not all 3 inches is used). Three inch belts were only ever chosen becuase with old materials you couldn't make a 2 inch belt strong enough.
Seats are much more important than you though. You need a seat that holds your legs, pelvis, and shoulders. Holding your chest might make you feel good, but it's not important and might only help break your ribs. While SFI 39.1 seats are the best, you can make other seats perform better. SFI also has a standard for harness mounting and how to work with your seat.
Now, back to helmets - while any helmet that passes the current Snell test is considered equal by Snell, they really are not. Stand 21 is the only company that uses a polypropolene inner shell versus the standard polystyrene. What this means is that a regular helmet does not recover from an impact. The polystyrene compresses and stays compressed. It is also not that strong. You can crush a shell with our hands. The Stand21 shell recovers (you can't dent it) and it WAY stronger. I couldn't crush it with my hands!
Stand21 also has the best fitting program of any helmet company. I went to everyone (Stilo, Bell, Simpson, HJC, etc) and no one can make a helmet fit like Stand21. They build the helmet to your head with multiple starting outer and inner shell sizes, different front and rear comfort pads, different top pads, and different cheak pads (comfort and protection). They will also customize for glasses, radios, drink, etc.
I used to think that their stuff was simply overpriced, but after checking everyone's equipment out it really is the best. No doubt. My next helmet will be a Stand21. I took the 20 minutes to get measured and fitted today.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it was important info worth sharing.
12-01-2012, 10:16 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thanks for taking the time to share info.
12-01-2012, 10:29 PM
#4
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It was really sort of eye opening for me. They are willing to do these sessions for other folks around the world. I'm thinking of trying to get one for PCA.
12-01-2012, 10:54 PM
#5
Drifting
Very interesting; thanks for posting. I've always like Stand 21 stuff, but it is tough to find around here. Northstar Motorsports used to carry them, but no longer. I've considered sending them my measurements to have one made, as I've heard they're very comfortable. Originally, I wanted a Stand 21 helmet, but when I tried it one, it was really uncomfortable. Add to that, my head is quite large (and like a helmet, usually empty...) and theirs just seemed too small.
Last thought; anyone ask why none of the current F1 drivers wear a Stand 21 helmet? Mostly Arai and Bell CF helmets on the grid, where the safety standards are amongst the highest (if not the highest).
Regardless, good info.
Last thought; anyone ask why none of the current F1 drivers wear a Stand 21 helmet? Mostly Arai and Bell CF helmets on the grid, where the safety standards are amongst the highest (if not the highest).
Regardless, good info.
12-02-2012, 08:57 AM
#7
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Very interesting; thanks for posting. I've always like Stand 21 stuff, but it is tough to find around here. Northstar Motorsports used to carry them, but no longer. I've considered sending them my measurements to have one made, as I've heard they're very comfortable. Originally, I wanted a Stand 21 helmet, but when I tried it one, it was really uncomfortable. Add to that, my head is quite large (and like a helmet, usually empty...) and theirs just seemed too small.
Last thought; anyone ask why none of the current F1 drivers wear a Stand 21 helmet? Mostly Arai and Bell CF helmets on the grid, where the safety standards are amongst the highest (if not the highest).
Regardless, good info.
Last thought; anyone ask why none of the current F1 drivers wear a Stand 21 helmet? Mostly Arai and Bell CF helmets on the grid, where the safety standards are amongst the highest (if not the highest).
Regardless, good info.
I'm not sure about F1. You can buy an FIA 8806 helmet from Stand21 and it's around $700 more than the Snell 2010 version.
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12-02-2012, 09:42 AM
#8
.....
Wearing Nomex (still the best) or CarbonX underwear under any level of suit is critical. In your typical SFI 3.2A/5 suit, you get approx. 10 seconds until you get a second degree burn. Simply by adding underwear, you double the time to 20 seconds. Also, you're synthetic fiber shirts/underwear (Under Armour) are a really bad idea. They will melt before you would have any other burns and cause huge skin damage.
An interesing peice of info - in Simona de Silvestro's crash and burn, her hands were not burned by the fire. They were steam burned from the sweat in her gloves when she went to help remove the steering wheel!.......
Wearing Nomex (still the best) or CarbonX underwear under any level of suit is critical. In your typical SFI 3.2A/5 suit, you get approx. 10 seconds until you get a second degree burn. Simply by adding underwear, you double the time to 20 seconds. Also, you're synthetic fiber shirts/underwear (Under Armour) are a really bad idea. They will melt before you would have any other burns and cause huge skin damage.
An interesing peice of info - in Simona de Silvestro's crash and burn, her hands were not burned by the fire. They were steam burned from the sweat in her gloves when she went to help remove the steering wheel!.......
12-02-2012, 10:18 AM
#9
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Another speaker at the seminar was Dr. Jacques Dallaire, author of "Performance Thinking." Great stuff. Terry Trammell is the orthopaedic surgeon to the stars! He's amazing.
This year, I broke down and bought a Stand 21 helmet. I had several expensive (and expensively painted) Bell's, which I think are great, but I wanted a helmet with SAH2010 certification and I know how important fit is in helmets and seats.
I was fitted at Road Atlanta and have been very pleased with my purchase, even though it was substantially more expensive that any helmet I'd purchased in the past, including the Arai GP-5 line.
Good info and thanks for posting.
This year, I broke down and bought a Stand 21 helmet. I had several expensive (and expensively painted) Bell's, which I think are great, but I wanted a helmet with SAH2010 certification and I know how important fit is in helmets and seats.
I was fitted at Road Atlanta and have been very pleased with my purchase, even though it was substantially more expensive that any helmet I'd purchased in the past, including the Arai GP-5 line.
Good info and thanks for posting.
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
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12-02-2012, 11:03 AM
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Matt,
I;m glad you found Yves Morizot as nice a guy as we did four years ago. We visited the factory in Dijon and I got the COMPLETE factory tour by Yves himself. You should see all the Stand21 suits in his office! (ALL the F1 and Le Mans greats from the 80's on). From such a small factory comes so much wonderful stuff. I had a custom helmet made and they took my measurements for a suit. They have one room that is wall-to-wall notebooks FULL of measurements used to make custom suits. From that visit to now, ALL my safety equipment from head to toe is all Stand21. Expensive? You bet. Worth it? Absolutely!
Great info. Thanks for posting this. The Stand21 team in Dijon, France is outstanding. You won't find nicer, more knowledgeable folks. And the Stand21 team in Atlanta are great as well.
Toby
I;m glad you found Yves Morizot as nice a guy as we did four years ago. We visited the factory in Dijon and I got the COMPLETE factory tour by Yves himself. You should see all the Stand21 suits in his office! (ALL the F1 and Le Mans greats from the 80's on). From such a small factory comes so much wonderful stuff. I had a custom helmet made and they took my measurements for a suit. They have one room that is wall-to-wall notebooks FULL of measurements used to make custom suits. From that visit to now, ALL my safety equipment from head to toe is all Stand21. Expensive? You bet. Worth it? Absolutely!
Great info. Thanks for posting this. The Stand21 team in Dijon, France is outstanding. You won't find nicer, more knowledgeable folks. And the Stand21 team in Atlanta are great as well.
Toby
12-02-2012, 11:21 AM
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Thank you
12-02-2012, 11:35 AM
#12
Drifting
From what they told us, depending on how long ago you tried one on, they might be completely different. Fitting me it went from uncomfortable to great. Franck (their main Atlanta fitter) is really good at fitting helmets.
I'm not sure about F1. You can buy an FIA 8806 helmet from Stand21 and it's around $700 more than the Snell 2010 version.
I'm not sure about F1. You can buy an FIA 8806 helmet from Stand21 and it's around $700 more than the Snell 2010 version.
12-02-2012, 11:37 AM
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I have worn Stand 21 for years and have had an airflow helmet for a few years.
This season I bought my co driver a Stand 21 team suit and he said it is the most comfortable suit he has ever worn.
My only comment is I wish they had an air flow helmet that supplies air to the top of the helmet. I know Stand says side air is better but I would like the option.
Mark
This season I bought my co driver a Stand 21 team suit and he said it is the most comfortable suit he has ever worn.
My only comment is I wish they had an air flow helmet that supplies air to the top of the helmet. I know Stand says side air is better but I would like the option.
Mark
Wish the IVOS started in size 54mm as the F21 did.
12-02-2012, 12:40 PM
#15
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I had always wondered what made one helmet better than another. They all pass standards but what were the differences? I know some are lighter than others but nice to know that there are some differences.
Also, as a bit of a newcomer to this sport, can I get some more details on the 5 pt. vs. 6 pt. situation? Reading "talk in a higher octave" I think I know
some more details would be helpful though.
Also, as a bit of a newcomer to this sport, can I get some more details on the 5 pt. vs. 6 pt. situation? Reading "talk in a higher octave" I think I know
some more details would be helpful though.