67King

Sorry for the delayed response, as I have been out of the country with no e-mail access, and apologies for a very, very poorly worded statement.

The feedback said F1 team gave was "looked like a new gearbox," whereas a typical durability test would show a transmission that was worn out. Unfortunately, as you can imagine in the world secrecey that is F1, this was done quite sub rosa. So while we have many testimonials from Rally teams, BTCC, etc. the F1 guys have sponsorship deals that will preclude us from being able to give direct feedback.

So, correct, "no wear" was more of a figurative statement than a literal one. I was trying to communicate the message of a statement said casually, and created some confusion, for which I apologize. But again, the guys free to speak publicly are getting 3-4 times the life out of the gearbox.

This is a PDF of an article about the gear oil from Racetech Magazine from the July, 2009 issue. I can tell you this all I want, but hopefully this will serve as a good, objective resource: http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF...eakthrough.pdf

67King

Bob, thanks for bringing this up. Somehow the superscript got lost on the datasheet, but if you read down at the bottom, you'll see that the LS stuff IS indeed recommended for limited slip, synchro gearboxes. Regardless, we need to make this more obvious. It has been used by Karl in his GTB1/World Challenge 996, as well as a Grand Am team with a FWD transaxle, and works well.

We have had one customer in a GT3 who was having issues with gear oil being too slick, so we went with the non-LS stuff for his car. I can't recall the details, but Karl is thinking it might have been that for whatever reason, he had a Quaiffe (i.e. a non-clutch setup), which would not use the LS, regardless.

The reason that the gear oil with LS additive is not recommended for conventional gearboxes (i.e. w/o the differential) with synchros is that the reduced friction from the nano additive combined with the reduced friction from LS modifyers would make the synchros "too" slick. But again, so far we've seen success in a few applications running the LS gear oil in transaxles with clutch-type diffs.

67King

Small world. I know Vinod. That technology was developed here at Oak Ridge National Labs, and he used to be based in an incubator here (about 20 minutes from here). It doesn't actually use nanospheres, but a rather different technique. I met him in a prior start-up endeavor, where I was looking to use the same technology in an LED application. Seeing this stuff in real-life is just incredible!

67King

The difference with nanospheres and stuff like asbestos is that the spheres and tubes are much, much smaller than the fibers that caused problems. From what I've been able to find out about asbestos, the fibers actually become entagled and trapped with chromosomes. The lengthes here are orders of magnitude larger than your typical buckey ball. Even a single red blood cell will be about two orders of magnitude larger in diameter than one of the nanospheres in the oil.

Here are some MSDSs for both the NT oil (http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/safety/7675.pdf) and the non-NT stuff(http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/safety/6253.pdf

Obviously the catch here is "known," versus "unknown." Fortunately, all of the processessing we do nowadays is genearlly more cautious than it had been in the past.

67King

Sorry I missed this. If it was not clear, we are the distributor, not the manufacturer. The patent question would be most properly directed to Millers Oils. This is my personal opinion, not the Millers positiong - In some other tech situations I've been in, a patent is seen as not a good value, and sometimes detremental, when the product can't be reverse engineered.

bauerjab

I see. I was trying to find out more "objective" information about the technology. And yes, provided that the product can not be reverse engineered, it can be a prudent strategy. Thanks.

Duke

So which trans oil would you recommend for a 968 gearbox with Torsen diff in a race car?
The CRX 75W90 NT?

JustinL

I have that same question. I suspect you're right on which one we need Duke.

67King

Yep. LS only for clutch type diffs. Clutch biasing and open use non LS. 75W90 for transaxles, 140 for rear ends (non Porsche apps).

winders

If it were for a street car with a clutch diff, I could see using the LS version of the oil. But is that what I would want for a race car?

Scott

67King

It is the version that most people want and use, there are a few exceptions. But if one is running without friction modifiers in his current gear oil, and is happy with it, I'm not going to tell him to change, though with few exceptions, the LS is recommended. But yes, it is what I run in my SP3 car, what Karl runs in his World Challege/GTB1 996, and what one of the Grand Am teams running a FWD applications have all been running.

winders

Wouldn't the LS additive cause the diff to slip more though? I could see wanting that ONLY if I set my diff up to aggressively. Otherwise, why would you want your diff to slip more?

Scott

67King

So the car will turn. It won't affect breakaway torque, but once it is slipping, it will allow the axles to move at different speeds without chattering or other friction which would want to induce oversteer.

The biggest concern with LS modifyers in a transaxles is not the diff, it is actually the synchros, which need some degree of friction to work.

Of course, if the diff manufacturer says to avoid modifiers, I'd defer to their recommendation, just as I'd defer to the engine manufacturer's/builder's specification for oil voscosity.

AudiOn19s

Could I ask for you to follow up with the GT3 owner that was having "issues" to help us determine which of the 75w 90's would be best for our cars.

I'm about two events out from needing to change the fluids in my gear box again (currently running Mobil Delvac), the Millers products have me intrigued and I'd like to give them a shot starting with the gerabox in my GT3. However, I don't want whatever I put in there to cause issues with my LSD.

Clark-ApexPerformance

I have both raced against and been a customer of Karl Poetel. His racing selections have always put him at the head of the pack. When he asked us about becoming a dealer for Miller Oils at the PRI show last Dec , I had little hesitation.
http://www.apexperformance.net/cartg...t.asp?scat=397

WE will be switching our 968 racecar motor to Miller plus going to fill up
one of our 924DP racing transaxles with Miller.

Please continue to direct application/technical questions to Mr King.