Toby Pennycuff

Yes, I know it's tricky. Almost as tricky as, well.... you get the picture.

Regardless, I am curious if anyone here has ever done this sort of thing, and whether you formalized the ownership with a written agreement that governed the ownership. I am thinking about clauses that cover who pays for what when damage occurs, how to set aside monies for future maintenance, first rights of refusal when selling, deciding factors when both owners want to run separate events on the same dates, etc.......

I can see the need to read the ECU after every session to watch for ovre-revs, tell-tale tachometers, etc... I think there would also need to be some language around expendables such as pads, clutch discs, tires, etc... Perhaps even a checklist that goes along with ECU radings to document the car's state before and after a weekend. Is that too much?

Has anyone formalized an agreement such as this and if so, would you care to share the document? Could you possibly take a rental agreement and extend it?

Appreciate input on the legal agreement please. Thanks!

Toby Pennycuff

And BTW, both of us broached this topic to each other independently. Would like to believe this would be an "Eyes Wide Open" situation.

winders

I hope you don't want to be friends with this person at the end of this deal. It's worse than marriage in that it is more likely to fail.

Scott

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Toby,

I'm sure you'll get several good suggestions, but I'd be inclined to do this the way partners share aircraft ownership.

I would install a Hobbs meter and divide powertrain costs by both individuals logging their times in the car. The rest of the consumables can be equitable divided by useage. If the car has an ECU that logs even events, this can be scanned and read after the end of day or weekend, depending on who is operating the car.

I don't this is a difficult arrangement to work out as long as both parties are realistic and honest people.

K964

This.

winders

Aircraft partnerships are typically a lot simpler to deal with because of how the aircraft is used. You don't have to track anything but hours usually.

For a race car, what if one person is harder on the transmission? You better have a way to track over-revs on missed shifts. What about tire abuse? Off track excursions? If the other partner is not there, who tracks that?

Sounds like a lot of chances for mistrust...once that sets in, forget it.

Scott

Matt Romanowski

I've been doing it for 5 or 6 years without trouble. We split things that are maintence releated (tires, brakes, oil, transmission rebuild, motors, etc) and are responsible for big things that we individually do - i.e. missed shifts, bad flat spots, etc. No trouble here, but we're great friends and figure that the small differences in use or whatever work out in the end. I know a few other folks that work this way without trouble too.

Toby Pennycuff

Scott, you raise good points. Ones that I have already talked about in this deal. The good news is that both potential owners are as **** as they come with regard to caring for the car and driving the car. There is no doubt that there will be opportunities for either party to take advantage of the situation. That's one of the reasons for asking about legal agreements that clearly spell out as much as one could come up with BEFORE consummating the transaction and becoming the "pig in breakfast". I also think reading out the ECU following drives is valid. Couple that with "Before" and "After" checklists, along with provisions for rquired track support from a known shop will go a long way towards avoiding "He said, she said" kinds of arguments. Make no mistake, these arrangements can become real headaches if not undertaken with appropriate, agreed upon safeguards and documentation.

That said, it's just like buying any race car..... No such thing as "investments" in race cars. They are pure expense! Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply fooling themselves. If I do this, I'm prepared to write off ALL the dollars the day I sign the Bill of Sale.

Steve, good suggestion on the aircraft ownership. I'll look into some sample agreements there. They are likely to be more readily accessible.

Appreciate more input folks.

Toby Pennycuff

Glad to hear of your positive experiences Matt. Did you guys formalize the arrangements or (if I may ask) is your friendship such that you guys can operate on a handshake?

multi21

Don't forget about "Time"....

As in what is considered to be a reasonable amount of time to complete and/or fix the almost inevitable damage done to a car whether it be body work, engine, tranny or other.

If the partner says, "I don't have the money to fit it right now, but I will get to it" is it going to impact your racing.

Although it can work out, being a partner in something like this has a lot of downsides.

Toby Pennycuff

Pete, good point. There's a reliable shop in our building where the car would be kept that is familiar with the car. And a GREAT body shop 10 miles down the road. Good news for me is that this would not be my ONLY race car (I can't even believe I'm saying that frankly!). That said, it is a very good point for consideration.

If Mr. Weiner would only open his Southwest branch, this could be GOLDEN! B))

jscott82

The only way I would go into an agreement like this would be to know/trust my partners driving style to the extent that we can agree to split all costs 50/50 (or % based on time) unless directly attributable to an obvious event (ie: accident or BIG money shift)...

Imo: Trying to determine/document who is harder on parts is asking for trouble. Just have a caveat that either party can buy the other one out at any time (and make sure you both have the means to do so), that way if things get uncomfortable, buy your partner out and move on.

Toby Pennycuff

^Agreed.

Matt Romanowski

We have nothing formal. We've been good friends for a long time and just make everything fair. We actually travel to and from events together and split all of that stuff. We just work under the "make it fair" doctrine and everything has been fine.

TheOtherEric

I actually co-own and co-drive my race car. But the co-owner/driver is my wife, which is about the only way in hell I'd ever consider doing this!

No offense, but this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. E.g. how do you deal with day-to-day upgrades that one party wants and the other might not? How about if the other guy does a shoddy repair after an incident? Or minor scrapes & dents? Or ...