Sam Posey on why Senna was SO fast..
05-03-2012, 09:52 AM
#17
Burning Brakes
Lifting is no solution to losing rear grip. I believe that he is using lift throttle oversteer to rotate the car. Commonly done in carrousel turns, but Senna's skills were a bit beyond typical.
05-03-2012, 09:58 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yup, most likely because the street NSX understeered a lot...
05-03-2012, 10:19 AM
#19
I have observed this before and never could quite put a finger on it or describe it but your comment sorta made the light pop... What I think is that if you are someone who "likes" driving in the rain and do it quite a bit you acquire this habit of "provoked unbalance".
At first I think people probably just do it for the fun of it but they soon realize that in the rain, a slide that you provoked and, by nature anticipated, is much better than getting surprised. So they just do this to make sure the car will go the way they want it to instead of the car deciding on its own.
You can probably extend this to dry conditions, however at much higher speeds... With that in mind it would make sense to enter slightly early, give that flick, and get out. I can just imagine the cohones that would take to do this at full speed against a guardrail... Needless to say, I'll stick to my very late apexes...
Pls someone correct me if I am wrong...
T.
05-03-2012, 10:22 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
I recall watching that rain race at Donington Park live, and when the checker flew I remember sitting back and realizing that I'd just seen something very special.
Further, his run to pole in a McLaren at Monaco is widely considered one of the most mesmerizing laps in the history of F1.
And I'm quite sure Schumacher wouldn't be holding quite as many records had Ayrton lived on. Even though he does in my mind.
Further, his run to pole in a McLaren at Monaco is widely considered one of the most mesmerizing laps in the history of F1.
And I'm quite sure Schumacher wouldn't be holding quite as many records had Ayrton lived on. Even though he does in my mind.
05-03-2012, 02:24 PM
#21
Great video VR, thanks very much for posting. The part about Posey mentioning instinct made me reflect on an article Road and Track published about some comments Senna made in a post-qualifying press conference. The author focused on the idea that Senna was essentially in such a deep trance when he qualified that as he was entering a corner, he was able to process information so quickly that he could pre-drive the corner in his head and adjust for things he hadn't even done yet. The article analogized this to singing along with a song with which you're very familiar and, as you're really enjoying the melody and singing out the correct lyrics, you can hear the next line in your head. That's pretty amazing considering all of the distractions of being in a Formula 1 car.
I think that Senna's concentration and commitment would make him great in modern Formula 1. That said, I've read that despite all his training, that his body wasn't the most tolerant of the forces on it and the tasks being asked of it. I have to believe that an older car like the ones he drove would have heavier steering and be much more of a handful but I also wonder how he would cope with all the Gs modern cars pull.
The other thing that I've read about that might not lend Senna to being as far away from the competition in today's F1 as he was in his day is his throttle-tapping style. My dad had some old races taped, most notably the 91 Monaco GP, and you could very clearly hear him replicating that gas on, gas off style he used in the NSX in his F1 car. There's a Youtube video where the commentator says it used to help him to pick up throttle early, but I doubt it would provide that benefit in a modern Formula 1 car, particularly the ones with traction control that really did a lot of the corner-exit work for you. I think there's too much going on there and the cars require smoother inputs than the older cars.
That said, I think he'd easily be in the top 3 drivers for the majority of his career and spend most of his time as the best.
I think that Senna's concentration and commitment would make him great in modern Formula 1. That said, I've read that despite all his training, that his body wasn't the most tolerant of the forces on it and the tasks being asked of it. I have to believe that an older car like the ones he drove would have heavier steering and be much more of a handful but I also wonder how he would cope with all the Gs modern cars pull.
The other thing that I've read about that might not lend Senna to being as far away from the competition in today's F1 as he was in his day is his throttle-tapping style. My dad had some old races taped, most notably the 91 Monaco GP, and you could very clearly hear him replicating that gas on, gas off style he used in the NSX in his F1 car. There's a Youtube video where the commentator says it used to help him to pick up throttle early, but I doubt it would provide that benefit in a modern Formula 1 car, particularly the ones with traction control that really did a lot of the corner-exit work for you. I think there's too much going on there and the cars require smoother inputs than the older cars.
That said, I think he'd easily be in the top 3 drivers for the majority of his career and spend most of his time as the best.
05-03-2012, 02:32 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
I have no doubt that he'd have figured out whatever was entailed in the current cars and been at the very top. As for physical attributes, don't forget that in those days drivers took one hand off to shift. He goes around most of Monaco with one hand on the wheel.
05-03-2012, 02:48 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
If you watch the video he keeps the rpm's between 6,000-8,000 the whole time. Just amazing . Guys look at your in car and see how much you tack drops in the turns ,under braking and when most of you are coasting . if you notice he keeps the revs up under braking as well not just blips. The guy was a track God
05-03-2012, 02:52 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
I have seen that sort of "wheel flicking" many, many times. A good place to see and do this is in AX. Induced oversteer to rotate the car rapidly... I have tried this in places like turn 2 at Laguna. No consequences but a spin.
My favorite place to observe this is at the neighborhood indoor karting place. Many of the kids that work there lap as fast or faster than visiting pro drivers, but they don't have any knowledge about the theory. They just figure it out... and this type of hard rotation is often prevalent in their driving styles.
My favorite place to observe this is at the neighborhood indoor karting place. Many of the kids that work there lap as fast or faster than visiting pro drivers, but they don't have any knowledge about the theory. They just figure it out... and this type of hard rotation is often prevalent in their driving styles.
05-03-2012, 03:11 PM
#25
Scott
05-03-2012, 03:19 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
05-03-2012, 05:42 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
not to spin out while doing it is not overly diffucult, but you got to be realistic that if you do it 25-30ft away from a wall at 90+mph and one of your tires gets on a wet spot, on random marbles, sand or whatever crap that suddenly turns your controllable 4 point slide at 9/10th or 10/10th traction into, say, 15/10th - you may end up writing off your whole car. what`s the point?
and to speak of how Senna did end up his life, you know, it is just wiser to have a lot of safety margin ahead and behind on a track.
05-03-2012, 06:18 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
]not to spin out while doing it is not overly diffucult, but you got to be realistic that if you do it 25-30ft away from a wall at 90+mph and one of your tires gets on a wet spot, on random marbles, sand or whatever crap that suddenly turns your controllable 4 point slide at 9/10th or 10/10th traction into, say, 15/10th - you may end up writing off your whole car. what`s the point?
-mike