Sam Posey on why Senna was SO fast..
05-02-2012, 05:24 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Interesting to note that Posey suggests that an early apex can be the fastest way..perhaps when you have the skill levels of a Senna!
05-02-2012, 05:46 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
I wonder how his skill set would compare today.
Shumi isn't the same driver he was 5-10 years ago... or maybe he is. Just everyone else has gotten better. Would that be the same for Senna, if he could drive today?
Shumi isn't the same driver he was 5-10 years ago... or maybe he is. Just everyone else has gotten better. Would that be the same for Senna, if he could drive today?
05-02-2012, 07:10 PM
#7
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IMHO, talent will transcend time and technology improvements. While the newest era of F1 cars are faster and been told easier to drive due to increases in aero and mechanical grip, it is sill the pilot that makes the machine fast. If anything, Senna’s loose style would be even more rewarded due to the newer cars enhanced grip. Would be very interesting to test this but guess we will never really know.
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05-02-2012, 07:10 PM
#8
Drifting
Senna was the best Formula 1 driver I have ever had the privilege to watch. I was in his pits in Phoenix and had the opportunity to see him qualify. It changed my driving style forever. To see him qualify was something beyond comprehension.
05-02-2012, 07:56 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Senna was amazing. He did not do things like everyone else. In this video, note not only the stylish footwear, but the mid corner throttle stabs. I think that I would be invited to leave a DE if I did that. I also would no longer be on the track.
05-02-2012, 09:04 PM
#10
Drifting
Soooo much talent. The Senna movie provides a great overview of how and why he was such a great driver, rent it on I-Tunes. It's a shame he died so young.
05-03-2012, 01:52 AM
#12
Late Porkchops
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Senna's monster Honda race motor put out a reported 1200 Hp and he had somewhere about half of the grip of today cars, whether that be aero grip or the mechanical grip of the tires. Senna also had no semi-automatic gearbox with sync'ed downshifts, and no electronic traction control that I am aware of.
So todays or recent F1 race cars have something around 800 Hp , or a full 33% LESS than he had, and roughly TWICE the grip and downforce of his car, that coupled to an electronic shifting gearbox and the gearbox is synced up for them on the downshifts. Todays F1 cars, via the sensors, also generally minimize tire spin. The more common mistakes in upshifting, downshifting, and wheel spin that might be made in the heat of a tight race then , are largely reduced or eliminated today.
While Senna may not have done quite as much as he did earlier, and Micheals records are undoubtedly here to stay for quite some time too, I would say look at Sennas body of work in F1 . Look at Pole positions, victories, Championships (and add 1 from Prost
) , and then his incredible drives in the rain on those tires, to formulate an answer.
Last edited by TexasRider; 05-03-2012 at 02:13 AM. Reason: sp
05-03-2012, 02:08 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
Here is something to consider.
Senna's monster Honda race motor put out a reported 1200 Hp and he had somewhere about half of the grip of today cars, whether that be aero grip or the mechanical grip of the tires. Senna also had no semi-automatic gearbox with sync'ed downshifts, and no electronic traction control that I am aware of.
So todays or recent F1 race cars have something around 800 Hp , or a full 33% less than he had, and roughly twice the grip and downforce of his car, that coupled to an electronic shifting gearbox and the gearbox is synced up for them on the downshifts. Todays F1 cars, via the sensors, also generally minimize tire spin. The more common mistakes in upshifting, downshifting, and wheel spin that might be made in the heat of a tight race then , are largely reduced or eliminated today.
While Senna may not have done quite as much as he did earlier, and Micheals records are undoubtedly here to stay for quite some time too, I would say look at Sennas body of work in F1 . Look at Pole positions, Championships (and add 1 from Prost ) , and then his incredible drives in the rain on those tires, to formulate an answer.
Senna's monster Honda race motor put out a reported 1200 Hp and he had somewhere about half of the grip of today cars, whether that be aero grip or the mechanical grip of the tires. Senna also had no semi-automatic gearbox with sync'ed downshifts, and no electronic traction control that I am aware of.
So todays or recent F1 race cars have something around 800 Hp , or a full 33% less than he had, and roughly twice the grip and downforce of his car, that coupled to an electronic shifting gearbox and the gearbox is synced up for them on the downshifts. Todays F1 cars, via the sensors, also generally minimize tire spin. The more common mistakes in upshifting, downshifting, and wheel spin that might be made in the heat of a tight race then , are largely reduced or eliminated today.
While Senna may not have done quite as much as he did earlier, and Micheals records are undoubtedly here to stay for quite some time too, I would say look at Sennas body of work in F1 . Look at Pole positions, Championships (and add 1 from Prost
) , and then his incredible drives in the rain on those tires, to formulate an answer.
05-03-2012, 03:24 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Here is something to consider.
Senna's monster Honda race motor put out a reported 1200 Hp and he had somewhere about half of the grip of today cars, whether that be aero grip or the mechanical grip of the tires. Senna also had no semi-automatic gearbox with sync'ed downshifts, and no electronic traction control that I am aware of.
So todays or recent F1 race cars have something around 800 Hp , or a full 33% LESS than he had, and roughly TWICE the grip and downforce of his car, that coupled to an electronic shifting gearbox and the gearbox is synced up for them on the downshifts. Todays F1 cars, via the sensors, also generally minimize tire spin. The more common mistakes in upshifting, downshifting, and wheel spin that might be made in the heat of a tight race then , are largely reduced or eliminated today.
While Senna may not have done quite as much as he did earlier, and Micheals records are undoubtedly here to stay for quite some time too, I would say look at Sennas body of work in F1 . Look at Pole positions, victories, Championships (and add 1 from Prost ) , and then his incredible drives in the rain on those tires, to formulate an answer.
Senna's monster Honda race motor put out a reported 1200 Hp and he had somewhere about half of the grip of today cars, whether that be aero grip or the mechanical grip of the tires. Senna also had no semi-automatic gearbox with sync'ed downshifts, and no electronic traction control that I am aware of.
So todays or recent F1 race cars have something around 800 Hp , or a full 33% LESS than he had, and roughly TWICE the grip and downforce of his car, that coupled to an electronic shifting gearbox and the gearbox is synced up for them on the downshifts. Todays F1 cars, via the sensors, also generally minimize tire spin. The more common mistakes in upshifting, downshifting, and wheel spin that might be made in the heat of a tight race then , are largely reduced or eliminated today.
While Senna may not have done quite as much as he did earlier, and Micheals records are undoubtedly here to stay for quite some time too, I would say look at Sennas body of work in F1 . Look at Pole positions, victories, Championships (and add 1 from Prost
) , and then his incredible drives in the rain on those tires, to formulate an answer.I was just simply asking what the opinion was if Senna was now in the current situation that Shumi is in. Would Senna be just as impressive today, in these cars, as he was in his time? Or, would he, like Shumi, be lack luster?
How about from the other side.... Mika, Shumi, Vettel, Button, back in Senna's time? Could they keep up with Senna, in his era car?
(Its interesting to compare talent with talent. Is there a "Senna" among us now, but because the cars are so vastly different, he doesn't stick out like Senna did in his time?)
05-03-2012, 07:00 AM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Cool, thanks for posting. I have always felt that Sam Posey is awesome at things like this, and after so many years I still look forward to his annual assessment of F1 drivers in Road and Track. I also like the production work he does on the Speed F1 broadcasts... it is a dramatic highlight each and every time. I think it mates really well with Varsha's work which I also appreciate.
As to Senna, this video makes me think about the intersections between athletic talents, developed skills, and the power of the human mind. And the latter as it relates to spirituality. The best Formula 1 driver of all time is a computer program that provides perfect control inputs to achieve the perfect laps each and every time for a given machine and circumstance. Human drivers try to achieve this, and in Senna's case, the spiritual mind was a key part of his constant success staying high on the curve.
Apples and oranges can be compared. To me, whether it is interesting depends on, among other things, the structure of the comparison. I don't know how Senna would fare in today's cars, nor how today's great drivers would fare in a car like his. But I do know that they would all be trying to give the car the perfect inputs at all times.
The equipment has definitely become more complex, no denying that. Easier to drive? Maybe yes, maybe no.
I recently went to watch a gymnastics meet where some of the best in the US competed. I have been to just a few of these in the past few years. They do things now that we thought impossible years ago. For example on the floor. On this visit, the crowd was invited to meet some of the athletes down on the floor after the competition. So I went. I instantly noticed how compliant the floor was compared to what we had in the early 80's. In this period we went from plain mats to mats on top of boards with valve springs (spring floors). That was a big change. Today's floors are even more compliant. More compliant means greater air. Greater air means more flips and twists. Better? Easier? I don't know. Different, yes. Are the athletes better? I dunno.
I chatted with a "regular guy" at Sears Point last weekend. He had just done a few laps in his 2003 Ferrari F1 car. Turns out he has a few older ones as well, representing different eras. He has some interesting perspective comparing Ferrari apples and oranges.
I always thought that Senna was deified by many even before he died. Somewhat unique amongst sporting heroes.
As to Senna, this video makes me think about the intersections between athletic talents, developed skills, and the power of the human mind. And the latter as it relates to spirituality. The best Formula 1 driver of all time is a computer program that provides perfect control inputs to achieve the perfect laps each and every time for a given machine and circumstance. Human drivers try to achieve this, and in Senna's case, the spiritual mind was a key part of his constant success staying high on the curve.
Apples and oranges can be compared. To me, whether it is interesting depends on, among other things, the structure of the comparison. I don't know how Senna would fare in today's cars, nor how today's great drivers would fare in a car like his. But I do know that they would all be trying to give the car the perfect inputs at all times.
The equipment has definitely become more complex, no denying that. Easier to drive? Maybe yes, maybe no.
I recently went to watch a gymnastics meet where some of the best in the US competed. I have been to just a few of these in the past few years. They do things now that we thought impossible years ago. For example on the floor. On this visit, the crowd was invited to meet some of the athletes down on the floor after the competition. So I went. I instantly noticed how compliant the floor was compared to what we had in the early 80's. In this period we went from plain mats to mats on top of boards with valve springs (spring floors). That was a big change. Today's floors are even more compliant. More compliant means greater air. Greater air means more flips and twists. Better? Easier? I don't know. Different, yes. Are the athletes better? I dunno.
I chatted with a "regular guy" at Sears Point last weekend. He had just done a few laps in his 2003 Ferrari F1 car. Turns out he has a few older ones as well, representing different eras. He has some interesting perspective comparing Ferrari apples and oranges.
I always thought that Senna was deified by many even before he died. Somewhat unique amongst sporting heroes.