Recommended welder settings for cage tubing
04-17-2012, 04:05 PM
#16
Very nice. I also agree that you will probably find much more proper structural welding in an industrial setting than in a race shop.
I am relatively aware of the importance of quality welds. Probably more so than many here (with all due respect...). As an ME for a process and equipment engineering firm w/ “Iron Works” in the company name, I deal w/ weld design and inspection almost daily. ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code books and WRC (Welding Research Council) bulletins are on a shelf behind my office desk. Could talk longer than anyone would care to about groove, bevel, fillet, root, partial/full penetration and other design factors that apply to welded steel fabrication of structural and high pressure containing equipment. If we have welds fail due to inadequate design or poor weld quality, there is risk of hundreds of thousands of pounds of equipment falling, 150 psig steam rupturing shell walls, or high pressure explosive vapor leaks. Dye penetrant and x-ray testing of welds for porosity and laminations of the base material is standard practice. Welder’s certification levels are documented and inspected by 3rd party ASME Authorized Inspectors.
Which leads me to a side note – with that said, I would highly doubt that most “pro” race shops building cages for amateur/club cars have any welders that are AWS (American Welding Society) trained and certified, which is what heavy industry uses to determine a welder’s skill/qualification. Not implying that it should be required for cage building, as MIG welding 1/8” wall tubing doesn’t require significant training, but I have seen some very questionable welds and cage designs come out of shops.
This is a problem w/ a lot of weld-in cages built by even "pro" shops. In order to get clearance to get a full 360 deg wrap, you either have to remove the roof skin or bore holes thru the floor/sill and drop the cage down to get access to the roofline joints (primarily the front header bar and all upper attachments to the main hoop). A lot of shops will not take the time to do that right. Looking at many cage build project pictures posted on the internet, you can tell by the sequence of installation that there are not full wraps on the upper roofline bar welds. I think its more common than most realize.
In fact - the reason I am using 1.5 x .120 wall tubing for the project is because I have some leftover bars from a roll cage that I cut out of a car. Cage was SCCA and PCA approved and installed by a "pro" shop, but it had a sectioned (cut - two piece split by the horizontal harness bar) main hoop diagonal bar that was not in plane w/ the main hoop, and none of the top welds were fully wrapped.
Recommend that everyone take a good look (with a small mirror) at the top side of your roof bar welds.
I am relatively aware of the importance of quality welds. Probably more so than many here (with all due respect...). As an ME for a process and equipment engineering firm w/ “Iron Works” in the company name, I deal w/ weld design and inspection almost daily. ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code books and WRC (Welding Research Council) bulletins are on a shelf behind my office desk. Could talk longer than anyone would care to about groove, bevel, fillet, root, partial/full penetration and other design factors that apply to welded steel fabrication of structural and high pressure containing equipment. If we have welds fail due to inadequate design or poor weld quality, there is risk of hundreds of thousands of pounds of equipment falling, 150 psig steam rupturing shell walls, or high pressure explosive vapor leaks. Dye penetrant and x-ray testing of welds for porosity and laminations of the base material is standard practice. Welder’s certification levels are documented and inspected by 3rd party ASME Authorized Inspectors.
Which leads me to a side note – with that said, I would highly doubt that most “pro” race shops building cages for amateur/club cars have any welders that are AWS (American Welding Society) trained and certified, which is what heavy industry uses to determine a welder’s skill/qualification. Not implying that it should be required for cage building, as MIG welding 1/8” wall tubing doesn’t require significant training, but I have seen some very questionable welds and cage designs come out of shops.
This is a problem w/ a lot of weld-in cages built by even "pro" shops. In order to get clearance to get a full 360 deg wrap, you either have to remove the roof skin or bore holes thru the floor/sill and drop the cage down to get access to the roofline joints (primarily the front header bar and all upper attachments to the main hoop). A lot of shops will not take the time to do that right. Looking at many cage build project pictures posted on the internet, you can tell by the sequence of installation that there are not full wraps on the upper roofline bar welds. I think its more common than most realize.
In fact - the reason I am using 1.5 x .120 wall tubing for the project is because I have some leftover bars from a roll cage that I cut out of a car. Cage was SCCA and PCA approved and installed by a "pro" shop, but it had a sectioned (cut - two piece split by the horizontal harness bar) main hoop diagonal bar that was not in plane w/ the main hoop, and none of the top welds were fully wrapped.
Recommend that everyone take a good look (with a small mirror) at the top side of your roof bar welds.
04-17-2012, 08:08 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
You'll get better penetration (though "messier") welds with innersheld wire.
However, the settings I would use if it were me, and my Handler 140, would be "4" on the amps, and between 30 and 40 IPM on the wire speed, depending on how fast you move.
However, the settings I would use if it were me, and my Handler 140, would be "4" on the amps, and between 30 and 40 IPM on the wire speed, depending on how fast you move.
04-17-2012, 08:22 PM
#18
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Funny thread well populated with many that repeat internet prattle without thought or experience.
I made and tested welds on 1.20 and . 95 wall tubing using a 120 V Miller 130. The welds were stronger than the tubing in all but one case. In that case I ran known cold and stitched with cold starts.
Agree if you have to ask setting info you need to go back a step.
Disagree with the 220V or die in a wreck gang. It is pure physics.
Amps, volts, temp and the like. Method and thought trump the 220 or die gang. 120 V is 1875 watts. this is enough for many applications. 1875W enough for your application? This depends on method and material.
I have a Miller 130 120V Mig, a Miller 251 220V mig and a loaded Miller Syncrowave 250. Each has it strong suit. Each has a range which is easily determined by the methods and materials used. If you have to ask you need to review you training materials. Miller has a great online training program.
WWW.Millerwelds.com Go to the real pros and skip the internet experts.
I made and tested welds on 1.20 and . 95 wall tubing using a 120 V Miller 130. The welds were stronger than the tubing in all but one case. In that case I ran known cold and stitched with cold starts.
Agree if you have to ask setting info you need to go back a step.
Disagree with the 220V or die in a wreck gang. It is pure physics.
Amps, volts, temp and the like. Method and thought trump the 220 or die gang. 120 V is 1875 watts. this is enough for many applications. 1875W enough for your application? This depends on method and material.
I have a Miller 130 120V Mig, a Miller 251 220V mig and a loaded Miller Syncrowave 250. Each has it strong suit. Each has a range which is easily determined by the methods and materials used. If you have to ask you need to review you training materials. Miller has a great online training program.
WWW.Millerwelds.com Go to the real pros and skip the internet experts.
04-18-2012, 02:40 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
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Then you either don't know what you're doing or the machine was setup wrong.
The 120V Hobart welder is rated for 140 amps – what do you need to get full pen on approx 1/8” wall material? Product information claims it can weld ¼” material single pass.
This is a problem w/ a lot of weld-in cages built by even "pro" shops. In order to get clearance to get a full 360 deg wrap, you either have to remove the roof skin or bore holes thru the floor/sill and drop the cage down to get access to the roofline joints (primarily the front header bar and all upper attachments to the main hoop). A lot of shops will not take the time to do that right. Looking at many cage build project pictures posted on the internet, you can tell by the sequence of installation that there are not full wraps on the upper roofline bar welds. I think its more common than most realize.
This is a problem w/ a lot of weld-in cages built by even "pro" shops. In order to get clearance to get a full 360 deg wrap, you either have to remove the roof skin or bore holes thru the floor/sill and drop the cage down to get access to the roofline joints (primarily the front header bar and all upper attachments to the main hoop). A lot of shops will not take the time to do that right. Looking at many cage build project pictures posted on the internet, you can tell by the sequence of installation that there are not full wraps on the upper roofline bar welds. I think its more common than most realize.
Very true about cages and "pro" shops, chose your pro wisely. People weld themselves into a corner all the time. I've seen far more cages with incomplete welds than I have cages with complete welds.
I doubt he will, I've used a Handler 140 pretty heavily before and never hit the duty cycle.
04-18-2012, 08:36 AM
#21
Drifting
I've done some welding w/ my Handler 140 on 1/8" sqare tube for a tire rack and similar stuff. I use '3' setting w/ wire speed ~25 (.03" flux-cored wire, though) and took my time. The 4 setting would occasionally trip my 20 amp breaker.
04-18-2012, 12:31 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
OddJob absolutely has the knowledge and skills to build a cage, car or anything surrounding it.
I'd race in a cage he builds any day because he'll do all the homework necessary to do it right. His 944 Cup clone is top notch.
I'd race in a cage he builds any day because he'll do all the homework necessary to do it right. His 944 Cup clone is top notch.
