HANS device 2005 model modification
03-18-2012, 09:09 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
03-18-2012, 10:42 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
I got in the car and strapped myself in like im going racing. as you will see from the pictures, my helmet is clearly midpoint high to the top of the seat back rest. the belts distance is just a tad under the spec of 3" and the angle is slightly lower from the attchement point to my shoulders, also well within the spec. The sparco seat is old but does have some decent lateral support, but it does hit mid body which i dont think is too good. the adjustment bars are at the spec and end up just at the tails of the device.
the part i dont like about the hans, is that the belt tracks are slanted and do not have keepers lke the "wings" of the new design. I did like the hutchenson much better due to its fit and feel, BUT it was a major hassle to get in and out of it.
So, based on somones suggesting "D" rings, i used an old kitchen drain keeper ring, that is 3" diameter to hold the belts together , just before they go into the seat openings. this is feeling like it will work, thought im not thrilled about the forward movement due to the lack of friction over the hans device itself.. from the pictures you will see the belt angles., the keeper ring, and the height of the seat back to my helmet mid point, which seems to be debatable that it is in spec.
Now, keep this on topic. im not tashing the HANs, im being critical of it due to the feel vs another style of head and neck restrant. sure the newer one might be better, but there is nothing wrong with a device that is dated 2005, and the racing rule makers tend to agree. again, i bought this from someone ive raced with in the past and trust him that it wasnt run over by a trailer.
.
So the point of this is to query the group as to their experiences and see if there is a way to make the fit better in my use of the HANS, because either way, its going to be used. BUT, i dont like the forward movement i can make with it all on and me strapped in extra tight. thats the discussion, ok?
[COLOR="Blue"]Mark, <snip>Not to mentoin the fact that you accused the device of being poorly engineered and the mandate to use it a farce, when it is clear you don't know how to use it (and would rather just trash it than learn the proper way).
Your adjustment bars are rigid. The belts need to wrap around the device to work properly, but the rigid adjustment bar won't let them. You also need sliding tethers. I have an older HANS without the lip, and until this week, had 3" belts. If you move the belts so the adjustment bar is lower and buy some sliding tethers, you will find the HANS to be imperceptible after you've been belted in for a couple of minutes.
COLOR]
the part i dont like about the hans, is that the belt tracks are slanted and do not have keepers lke the "wings" of the new design. I did like the hutchenson much better due to its fit and feel, BUT it was a major hassle to get in and out of it.
So, based on somones suggesting "D" rings, i used an old kitchen drain keeper ring, that is 3" diameter to hold the belts together , just before they go into the seat openings. this is feeling like it will work, thought im not thrilled about the forward movement due to the lack of friction over the hans device itself.. from the pictures you will see the belt angles., the keeper ring, and the height of the seat back to my helmet mid point, which seems to be debatable that it is in spec.
Now, keep this on topic. im not tashing the HANs, im being critical of it due to the feel vs another style of head and neck restrant. sure the newer one might be better, but there is nothing wrong with a device that is dated 2005, and the racing rule makers tend to agree. again, i bought this from someone ive raced with in the past and trust him that it wasnt run over by a trailer.
.So the point of this is to query the group as to their experiences and see if there is a way to make the fit better in my use of the HANS, because either way, its going to be used. BUT, i dont like the forward movement i can make with it all on and me strapped in extra tight. thats the discussion, ok?
[COLOR="Blue"]Mark, <snip>Not to mentoin the fact that you accused the device of being poorly engineered and the mandate to use it a farce, when it is clear you don't know how to use it (and would rather just trash it than learn the proper way).
Your adjustment bars are rigid. The belts need to wrap around the device to work properly, but the rigid adjustment bar won't let them. You also need sliding tethers. I have an older HANS without the lip, and until this week, had 3" belts. If you move the belts so the adjustment bar is lower and buy some sliding tethers, you will find the HANS to be imperceptible after you've been belted in for a couple of minutes.
COLOR]
See here, just click on each seat in the picture.
http://hansdevice.com/HANS-Pro-Serie...&category=-102
The first is Model 10-for 0-10 degree seats, 2nd one is Model 20 for for 20degree seats, 3rd is Model 30 for larger drivers and and most Formula car lay downs. From my standpoint looking at your seat pictures and knowing you are a taller/larger guy I am guessing that you may in fact need the larger Model 30, it does not appear that is the HANS that you have from my viewing the pictures you have supplied.
Getting the correct HANS model for your car/seat mounting position/seat angle, and body type will obviously greatly improve the fit.
In my honest opinion, I don't believe the seat angle in your mounting is correct, I don't believe you can get to the angle you are currently at with the Manufacturers matching unmodified seat brackets, which is technically the way the seat is approved as a safety device. So I kind of question more than just the HANS, but pictures aren't always enough to tell the whole picture. Also in the other thread of similar discussion that got shut down I believe you agreed the future held a new seat for you anyway.
You take hrs of your time to inquire on here regarding how you should do this properly from people that you have no idea who they are or what their experience level is, why not just take it to a professional shop and pay a little to ask for a professional opinion. Isn't GMG close to you ? I know you go to the track weekends where other pro shops are also racing, surely they could look at it for you.
I am sure that your wife and children would appreciate you seeking professional help regarding the safety equipment in your race car.
03-18-2012, 10:44 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
The early devices were pre SFI stickers and a number of people sent them back to get the sticker so they could run with organizations that have required an SFI sticker, not just an SFI device. I've seen a number like that and it's a red herring in the situation. The wings aren't going to change anything regarding the problems you are having.
03-19-2012, 01:54 AM
#34
I will probably be lambasted for this, but here goes. I have a 2004 vintage 20 degree Hans that came without the wings. I was racing a standard formula mazda at the time and had problems with the belts sliding off the hans due to the lack of wings. Belt mounting location was not trivial to change in this car. This vintage of hans also lacks the grippy friction material on the portion of the hans device that runs down over your chest
I modified the device by making some "wings" from a pair of $1.50 galvanized brackets from lowes that I cut and smoothed to shape then epoxied in place. I applied $5.00 worth of rubberized deck non-slip tape from the boat supply house to the chest "runners." These two mods worked great and solve my belt slippage issues. Hubbard Downing may say the wings don't make a difference, but there is a reason they went back to the winged design.
I am guessing my $10 modification is within your budget parameters.
I modified the device by making some "wings" from a pair of $1.50 galvanized brackets from lowes that I cut and smoothed to shape then epoxied in place. I applied $5.00 worth of rubberized deck non-slip tape from the boat supply house to the chest "runners." These two mods worked great and solve my belt slippage issues. Hubbard Downing may say the wings don't make a difference, but there is a reason they went back to the winged design.
I am guessing my $10 modification is within your budget parameters.
03-19-2012, 02:09 AM
#35
I will probably be lambasted for this, but here goes. I have a 2004 vintage 20 degree Hans that came without the wings. I was racing a standard formula mazda at the time and had problems with the belts sliding off the hans due to the lack of wings. Belt mounting location was not trivial to change in this car. This vintage of hans also lacks the grippy friction material on the portion of the hans device that runs down over your chest
I modified the device by making some "wings" from a pair of $1.50 galvanized brackets from lowes that I cut and smoothed to shape then epoxied in place. I applied $5.00 worth of rubberized deck non-slip tape from the boat supply house to the chest "runners." These two mods worked great and solve my belt slippage issues. Hubbard Downing may say the wings don't make a difference, but there is a reason they went back to the winged design.
I am guessing my $10 modification is within your budget parameters.
I modified the device by making some "wings" from a pair of $1.50 galvanized brackets from lowes that I cut and smoothed to shape then epoxied in place. I applied $5.00 worth of rubberized deck non-slip tape from the boat supply house to the chest "runners." These two mods worked great and solve my belt slippage issues. Hubbard Downing may say the wings don't make a difference, but there is a reason they went back to the winged design.
I am guessing my $10 modification is within your budget parameters.
Modifying a Hans Device on you own without any guidance from the engineers that designed the device makes you a candidate for the Darwin Awards....
Scott
03-19-2012, 09:23 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
I will probably be lambasted for this, but here goes. I have a 2004 vintage 20 degree Hans that came without the wings. I was racing a standard formula mazda at the time and had problems with the belts sliding off the hans due to the lack of wings. Belt mounting location was not trivial to change in this car. This vintage of hans also lacks the grippy friction material on the portion of the hans device that runs down over your chest
I modified the device by making some "wings" from a pair of $1.50 galvanized brackets from lowes that I cut and smoothed to shape then epoxied in place. I applied $5.00 worth of rubberized deck non-slip tape from the boat supply house to the chest "runners." These two mods worked great and solve my belt slippage issues. Hubbard Downing may say the wings don't make a difference, but there is a reason they went back to the winged design.
I am guessing my $10 modification is within your budget parameters.
I modified the device by making some "wings" from a pair of $1.50 galvanized brackets from lowes that I cut and smoothed to shape then epoxied in place. I applied $5.00 worth of rubberized deck non-slip tape from the boat supply house to the chest "runners." These two mods worked great and solve my belt slippage issues. Hubbard Downing may say the wings don't make a difference, but there is a reason they went back to the winged design.
I am guessing my $10 modification is within your budget parameters.
+2
03-19-2012, 11:24 AM
#38
Race Director
Mark,
This photo show a major problem.
Your belts are not tight enough if they allow you move this far forward. If you can get the back of your shoulders out of the seat you shoulder harness is too loose. I think you problem is the your haress bar is to low in the car. This causes you have the shoulder harness go up and over the top your shoulders too much. Combined with the layback you have it allows too much shoulder movement forward. When this happens the HANS... even when belts hold it... is compromised. The HANS relies on a tight shoulder belt to control the upper torso and to lock the neck to that torso. Once the torso moves the effect of holding things togehter is reduced. Yes belts do stretch, but that is taken into account. Loose shoulder belts are not. The other issue is that given your lay back you will have trouble turning your head. If you sit with your neck forward then you will fine the HANS grabbing you during normal driving. If you sit stright up iwth you head not forward at all then the standard tethers will allow plenty of head turning motion.
As of the ring behind the seat. Ditch it fast. All it will do is either fail and allow you more shoulder movment when belts expand out or pinch them and compromise their strength.
This photo show a major problem.
Your belts are not tight enough if they allow you move this far forward. If you can get the back of your shoulders out of the seat you shoulder harness is too loose. I think you problem is the your haress bar is to low in the car. This causes you have the shoulder harness go up and over the top your shoulders too much. Combined with the layback you have it allows too much shoulder movement forward. When this happens the HANS... even when belts hold it... is compromised. The HANS relies on a tight shoulder belt to control the upper torso and to lock the neck to that torso. Once the torso moves the effect of holding things togehter is reduced. Yes belts do stretch, but that is taken into account. Loose shoulder belts are not. The other issue is that given your lay back you will have trouble turning your head. If you sit with your neck forward then you will fine the HANS grabbing you during normal driving. If you sit stright up iwth you head not forward at all then the standard tethers will allow plenty of head turning motion.
As of the ring behind the seat. Ditch it fast. All it will do is either fail and allow you more shoulder movment when belts expand out or pinch them and compromise their strength.
03-19-2012, 11:37 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
"haress bar is to low in the car"....there is a specific recommended angle of the shoulder harness straps in relation to the cross bar. I'll look for it....meanwhile, when I went from a Sparco EVO 2 to a Cobra EVO Pro seat, the holes in the seat back were significantly higher in the seat, making the cross bar too low...I had to have the roll cage cross bar cut and re-welded in to meet the recommended shoulder belt angle...about $500...worth every penny.
When I am in my Evo seat with my Schroth HANS shoulder belts clamped down, I feel very secure, and comfortable too.
This is a great string...you can't be too safe IMHO. In addition to replacing my seat, it had just reached 10 years old, I have the HANS friendly seat, right side and left side window nets...and a nice new HANS device. I also have a fire extinguisher in the cabin...going to a manually activated remote unit soon.
From Circle Track:
SHOULDER STRAPS
The purpose of the shoulder straps is to anchor the driver's torso against the seat. Although brevity is necessary with all the belts, you especially want to keep the shoulder straps as short as possible because they are the longest pieces of the system. Any safety harness will allow a certain percentage of stretch, so the longer the belt, the more overall stretch it will allow. To minimize shoulder-belt length, the belts should mount to a rollcage bar almost directly behind the driver's seat and approximately level with his or her shoulder blades (or slightly higher).
The height of the shoulder strap mounts is critical because if they are too low they can actually compress the driver's spine in a collision. But if the mounting position is too high, the driver will be allowed to slide up in his or her seat if the car is overturned.
VanGilder says that the location of the shoulder strap mounts depends on the position of the driver. The mounts should be at a 90-degree angle to the line of the driver's spine. That means if the seat is more reclined, the mounts should be lower. But if the seat has the driver sitting up straight, the mounts should be higher. No modifications are necessary depending on whether the driver wears a head-and-neck restraint such as a HANS Device. Remember that these guidelines for properly mounting your seat and belts could be the difference between walking away from a crash and being carried out on a stretcher. But there is no substitute for talking with the belt and seat manufacturer. The manufacturer you choose will offer resources to help you properly mount your seat and belts.
Read more: http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct...#ixzz1pZfCOYVL
When I am in my Evo seat with my Schroth HANS shoulder belts clamped down, I feel very secure, and comfortable too.
This is a great string...you can't be too safe IMHO. In addition to replacing my seat, it had just reached 10 years old, I have the HANS friendly seat, right side and left side window nets...and a nice new HANS device. I also have a fire extinguisher in the cabin...going to a manually activated remote unit soon.
From Circle Track:
SHOULDER STRAPS
The purpose of the shoulder straps is to anchor the driver's torso against the seat. Although brevity is necessary with all the belts, you especially want to keep the shoulder straps as short as possible because they are the longest pieces of the system. Any safety harness will allow a certain percentage of stretch, so the longer the belt, the more overall stretch it will allow. To minimize shoulder-belt length, the belts should mount to a rollcage bar almost directly behind the driver's seat and approximately level with his or her shoulder blades (or slightly higher).
The height of the shoulder strap mounts is critical because if they are too low they can actually compress the driver's spine in a collision. But if the mounting position is too high, the driver will be allowed to slide up in his or her seat if the car is overturned.
VanGilder says that the location of the shoulder strap mounts depends on the position of the driver. The mounts should be at a 90-degree angle to the line of the driver's spine. That means if the seat is more reclined, the mounts should be lower. But if the seat has the driver sitting up straight, the mounts should be higher. No modifications are necessary depending on whether the driver wears a head-and-neck restraint such as a HANS Device. Remember that these guidelines for properly mounting your seat and belts could be the difference between walking away from a crash and being carried out on a stretcher. But there is no substitute for talking with the belt and seat manufacturer. The manufacturer you choose will offer resources to help you properly mount your seat and belts.
Read more: http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct...#ixzz1pZfCOYVL
03-19-2012, 01:48 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
What a god awful...
"F'" up'd pic. It can never happen to us, until it does. Damn!!! I hope that guy was OK....I have a late model HANS, the Schroth HANS 3: to 2" to 3" belts....worth every freaking penny I paid.
I have a good pal that was "T" boned...hit so hard it tore the seat off its mounts...the only thing that saved him was the right side net....after hearing this, I too have a right side net.
Note he got his bell rung, went to the hospital...but is just fine.
I have a good pal that was "T" boned...hit so hard it tore the seat off its mounts...the only thing that saved him was the right side net....after hearing this, I too have a right side net.
Note he got his bell rung, went to the hospital...but is just fine.
03-19-2012, 02:10 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
That is a scary picture.
There seems to be a lot of discussion on this stuff lately.
I have not read all of it, but I have seen some good suggestions and comments and some not so good. Despite all of the great pictures, descriptions and comments, it is hard for me to add anything concrete.
I think it would be great for Mark to seek as much local, in-person input as possible. Input where folks can perhaps see the car.
Mark, I think you live in Saratoga, and if so that is not too far from Campbell. Maybe 20 minutes? Maybe less.
Jerry Woods Enterprises (JWE) is located in Campbell. The folks there include Rich Walton, Gary Walton and Jerry Woods. They build race cars and modify race cars. They also do restoration. They have bucket loads of experience with Porsches.
Gary has been racing Porsches since 1965, and is the Chief Steward for the Porsche Racing Club. He is also race director for the annual 25 hour race at Thunderhill.
His son Rich has raced for years as well. He has one four 25 hour races under NASA sanction among other accomplishments.
Jerry has been involved with Porsche racing for a long time too. I don't know how many local guys you can talk to with that much experience with racing Porsches.
They have close ties with FLM, who race professionally in ALMS.
One of the things JWE have recently developed is a unique seat mounting approach that uses Porsche double-locking sliders. It is very clever. They are also building cages and have lots of experience with the kinds of things under discussion in this and other similar threads.
They are all Porsche and racing fanatics and great people.
Further north is TC DesignFab. Maybe 35 minutes from Saratoga without traffic. I am pretty sure that Tony there has built more cages in the SF Bay area than any other single shop, and he is an accomplished race car builder, fabricator, maintainer, et cetera. He is also an accomplished driver and coach, et cetera. Tony has familiarity with Porsches, and I know of several JWE customers that had their cages built and/or modified by Tony.
These are just two resources in our area that could possibly help you sort out any actual or perceived deficiencies in your set up.
The internet is great. The local brain trust is also great, and would have a distinct advantage with in-person communication/observation, et cetera.
Good luck, and I hope to see you out there!
- Mike
There seems to be a lot of discussion on this stuff lately.
I have not read all of it, but I have seen some good suggestions and comments and some not so good. Despite all of the great pictures, descriptions and comments, it is hard for me to add anything concrete.
I think it would be great for Mark to seek as much local, in-person input as possible. Input where folks can perhaps see the car.
Mark, I think you live in Saratoga, and if so that is not too far from Campbell. Maybe 20 minutes? Maybe less.
Jerry Woods Enterprises (JWE) is located in Campbell. The folks there include Rich Walton, Gary Walton and Jerry Woods. They build race cars and modify race cars. They also do restoration. They have bucket loads of experience with Porsches.
Gary has been racing Porsches since 1965, and is the Chief Steward for the Porsche Racing Club. He is also race director for the annual 25 hour race at Thunderhill.
His son Rich has raced for years as well. He has one four 25 hour races under NASA sanction among other accomplishments.
Jerry has been involved with Porsche racing for a long time too. I don't know how many local guys you can talk to with that much experience with racing Porsches.
They have close ties with FLM, who race professionally in ALMS.
One of the things JWE have recently developed is a unique seat mounting approach that uses Porsche double-locking sliders. It is very clever. They are also building cages and have lots of experience with the kinds of things under discussion in this and other similar threads.
They are all Porsche and racing fanatics and great people.
Further north is TC DesignFab. Maybe 35 minutes from Saratoga without traffic. I am pretty sure that Tony there has built more cages in the SF Bay area than any other single shop, and he is an accomplished race car builder, fabricator, maintainer, et cetera. He is also an accomplished driver and coach, et cetera. Tony has familiarity with Porsches, and I know of several JWE customers that had their cages built and/or modified by Tony.
These are just two resources in our area that could possibly help you sort out any actual or perceived deficiencies in your set up.
The internet is great. The local brain trust is also great, and would have a distinct advantage with in-person communication/observation, et cetera.
Good luck, and I hope to see you out there!
- Mike
Last edited by Mahler9th; 03-19-2012 at 04:00 PM.
03-19-2012, 02:14 PM
#44
Whats clear from the photo is 1) Restraints loosen in a crash, even if tight 2) HANS IS ESSENTIAL. He didn't have his on - wasn't mandated at the time. It is incredible how far your head will go, unnaturally so, in an impact.
03-19-2012, 02:58 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
I have not read all of it, but I have seen some good suggestions and comments and some not so good. Despite all of the great pictures, descriptions and comments, it is hard for me to add anything concrete.
I think it would be great for Mark to seek as much local, in-person input as possible. Input where folks can perhaps see the car.
The internet is great. The local brain trust is also great, and would have a distinct advantage with in-person communication/observation, et cetera.
Good luck, and I hope to see you out there!
- Mike