Chris M.

This is from the Spec 911 site. Just sayin'.

Spec911 is intended to be an entry level wheel-to-wheel racing class with an emphasis on fun, competitiveness, and cost containment.

earlyapex

It really makes no sense arguing until our faces turn blue about cost containment and racing. You will find that pro built spec cars no matter what class will cost much more than home built. This does not make spec 911 less of a class than the others that have been mentioned. There are many home built spec 911's in PRC that are very competitive. The driver is what matters.

My motor is far from exotic.

Mahler9th

The 16s are ubiquitous, and the tires that go on them are more affordable than many other choices. Fuchs are light and strong. A few folks use different wheels... I doubt there are any measurable advantages. Using bigger wheels just introduces more opportunities to spend and scrutineer. We have never had a problem with the 16s.

The engines need not be "exotic." I am not even sure what that means. You can use carbs. You can use FI. People make decisions and they spend or not. You can buy a good used Haltech FI systems for likely $10k or less that could be used on a a Spec 911. Or a new one for probably $1.5 k. Or you can invest in a $10k++ Motec system. The latter will not make your car capable of going any faster.

We have a wide range of folks. Doctors, lawyers, IT guys, ex-CEO's, mechanics, all types. They all compete hard and have fun. They seem to take to heart the old phrase: "strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends."

Mahler9th

I am quite curious about the weight differences between alphabet cars and Spec 911 and why some have stated it would be hard to get to Spec 911 weight. The only weight-challenged cars I know of in Spec 911 are the later cars with G50's. What do alphabet cars have that make them so heavy and why would it take a lot of effort to shed that weight? I cannot imagine it is wheels and tires...

Mahler9th

And Ken... context is everything. You put good tires on and get serious in a race environment and you will drive faster. You know that driving in lapping/DE events may not give you the opportunity/motivation to crank it up. I think your knowledge and driving skills would easily put you in the top 10 at many events once you got in synch. You are a fantastic driver!

KaiB

Weiner sez Ken can pedal a car pretty well, but that's just Weiner, what does he know about 911s?

analogmike

My '73 has RS lightweight interior, mag engine and trans and it still much heavier than your spec. I don't see how a later car can do it.

Spec Minimum weight of cars with drivers is as follows: cars with
2.7 engines 2300lbs
3.0 and 3.2 engines 2350lbs
3.0 engines and 3.6 intake plenums 2400lbs.
These weights are at the end of any qualifying or racing session.

our cars
D 78-80 911SC 2702
E 84-86 911 Carrera 2812
F 72-74 2.7 Carrera-Touring 2515

Tom W

Maybe I'm simply missing it, but don't 'alphabet' cars require a basically stock interior? SP911 cars are gutted and lack the carpet and other stuff that must remain in alphabet cars.

Chris M.

Who said we're arguing?

My car is completely gutted as in no carpet, no headliner, nothing left inside except what's required for safety. It has lightweight 15" wheels, fiberglass bumpers, a custom 6 point cage, a 15 pound Odyssey battery, fire system, no sunroof, no A/C components remaining, no washer fluid reservoir, etc and it weighs right at 2400 without me in it.

It does have a passenger's seat (required by PCA) and harnesses so I could lose about 20 pounds there but I don't have anything left to remove which means to get 150 pounds lighter for SP911 I assume I would have to replace all the glass with lexan, the hood, fenders, and doors with fiberglass or CF, and that still wouldn't get me there.

Are people actually running at the minimum weights? Maybe Eric can shed some light on how he achieved the proper weight.

earlyapex

FB front and rear bumpers.
FB engine cover and tail.
The inner roof panel and sun roof have bee removed. The sun roof has been replaced with a FB panel.
FB front fenders. I don't know what the original steel ones weigh.
Plastic front, rear quarter, and rear windows.
No passenger seat, but I have a FAST cooler in place of it.
FB hood.

My car has FB rear fenders, but this does not save weight versus the original steel fenders. The car had 930 flares at some point of its evolution and they were replaced with legal flares. The car still has the undercoating and a few coats of cheap paint.

I weigh 135 lbs and come in within 10 lbs of the 2350 lbs limit after a 30 minute race depending on how well we gauge fuel consumption.

I regularly get spanked by people driving spec 911's that weigh 100 lbs more than mine! That is why I keep my car simple and spend my money getting to the track.

Mahler9th

Thanks Eric, and again, Happy Holidays to you and your family.

One of the concepts of Spec 911, as I understand it, is to have a car that is more GT-like in terms of nimbleness and weight, without having to get into the "escalation" of high end GT1-6 cars. The power opportunities are clamped, as are the cornering opportunities. The consumables like tires and petrol are kind of clamped. You do not have to have a new set of tires each weekend.

Tom and Martin actually made and handed out DVDs at our year-end banquet, and the Vimeo video is the main attraction. In the "extras," the video crew interviewed one of the drivers that was chasing Tom closely in that September event. The driver does a lot of his own work, and I think this was his second season. I think his car has a chipped 3.2. I do not think it is an engine where he has spent tens of thousands of dollars. He has done his technical homework on things that make a difference, and has done his homework on driving. He has not spent his way to the front, he has done his homework.

Two Spec 911 self-builds are chronicled on the internet on some other forums so there maybe clues about weight there.

There is much debate about costs in all forms of racing. Costs are always higher when you don't turn your own wrenches to build or develop the car. Some of this is interest, some of it is time. Take set up. You can do a Spec 911 set up on your garage floor. You can also pay $500 - 1000 to have someone do it. That of course is part of racing.

Lots of variables.... one of our sponsors and car builders insists that you must have the Elephant Racing Products front control arm bushings to be competitive. So he puts them on every car he builds, as I understand it. Another of our sponsors/builders will use those same parts, or simple plastic bushings if his customers choose to save some money.

race911

My reference was testing the car after I wrecked the RS America. This wasn't DE. I needed to know if I was even in the ballpark putting the car together. Only after that did I have Tony install the cage. So I guess the car was ~100 lbs. lighter. Behram's (and Andy's) results were pulled from the May 2011 Thunderhill race.

One thing I haven't taken into consideration is the weight a car like Behram's has to carry. See below...........

Funny thing about this, though. After I typed the above yesterday I went and pulled my session results from that ill-fated Laguna club race in '04 when the engine let go. Even with a noticeably sick car (a piston ready to blow up), in one of my four laps that day I was within 4 seconds of the eventual quickest Spec 911 of that era. (Running in GT3S, as we didn't have National Spec 911.)

Thanks. Aging sucks. Always amazed that guys like Tom Van Overbeck are at the top of their game. Body probably isn't deteriorating from the inside, though.

If you were here, and not just reading things, you'd know that either car #2 or #3 for the series was probably as expensive to build as any of the top-level cars we see now. Hasn't stopped the fields from growing to 20+, from 3 or 4.

Personally, I'd like to see a Spec 911 Limited Prep with maybe all steel bodies, truly stock 3.2L engines, things like that.

And you haven't even mentioned trophy weight! I think Behram is carrying 150 lbs. now? Laser cut via Gamroth to fill the passenger floorboard.

Astroman

Even though I wish the rules were "better," I'm sure it's a great class with close racing between cars of all costs.

Perhaps some of this conversation would be more appropriate in a thread titled "Why are PCA Spec911 car counts so low?"

Evan Fullerton

Where are you guys hiding the weight? My '75 with a 3.0L with stock exhaust was 2400lb before I removed anything but the AC even with a front mounted oil cooler. Stripped down before the cage build it was <2100lb. That is as a running driving car with full steel impact beam doors, frames, windows, door panels, stock drivers seat (passenger removed). Only things taken out were passenger seat, full sunroof, all carpet, floor tar, any and all form of sound insulation, and all the other non needed street car parts such as parking brake.

This is with a heavy exhaust system and all steel bodywork except the rear bumper, and 6/7 16" Fuchs with heavy street tries.

Fiberglass front bumper is a wash weight wise with a splitter but there is a 100lb savings in fiberglass 993 GT2 Evo doors over full stock doors. The 993 GT2 Evo doors with aluminum hinges and plastic door handles are ~15lb a side after a little bondo and the full stock doors were over 65lb (might have had bondo). Even with my massively overbuilt cage it is going to be well under 2300lbs ready to race W/O driver with only fiberglass bumpers and doors and lexan side and rear window as things I spent money solely to reduce weight. I don't see 2400lb with driver being remotely a problem or expensive place to get to. I only have ~$2k in fiberglass and lexan to get there.

http://www.renntrack.com/forums/show...-911-Track-Toy

Chris M.

PCA stock classes used to require full interiors until we berated them to let us remove the carpet which we had to do to get our cages welded in. Plus, racecars look cooler with no interior.


Thanks.



I love this concept and it's is EXACTLY what I'm after but it simply doesn't exist in PCA club racing. I want the brakes, the lighter weight, no remote reservoir shocks, no 120hp/liter motors, and the non-reliance on Hoosiers. I want Spec 944 for 911s.

Let's make it happen!