Veloce Raptor

I instruct for some PCA and BMW CCA groups. One of the challenges with race cars we don't know is that you don't know. I have seen race cars show up at DE's that drive exceptionally well...and I have seen them drive terribly & pose a real risk to other drivers. Just because someone shows up in a full race car with license does not mean they are good to go.

With one seat, some groups may not allow you, since they cannot evaluate which of these 2 groups you will join.

ukrbmw

My 2 cents: I own a BMW and race one (big BMW fan personally), have been to multiple BMW DEs, participated as a student and guest instructor - still don't understand their logic. After attempting to communicate with their officers and people in charge - I gave up and haven't been to a BMW event in 18 months.

Frankly, in this environment there are too many organizations and track days that have a better communication/understanding process than BMW CCA. It is unfortunate for them - their club racing counts are falling and I think they are going to start losing their loyal followers, like me, to P-cars and other cars.

Astroman

Many years ago at a NORPCA Mid Ohio DE, a dude showed up in a really nicely prepped 80s 911. He evidently had a lot of track days but none with NOR. He was placed in the black group (highest student group) but they wanted a check ride for verification. Except he had only one seat.

NOR (really cool region, BTW) decided that, rather than send him home, they would have (instructor) Parker Berry follow him for a few laps to make sure he was OK. I caught a ride with Parker during this "check ride" and it was funny to watch Parker actually have to work a bit to stay with the single seat 911 guy...

The point of my story is that these clubs can be safe and cool at the same time IF THEY WANT TO.

911FM

Hard to comment on your personal case. Sorry you had a bad experience. I'd like to just offer a perspective on BMWCCA, based on my limited experience..

I actually started DE with them a few years ago (Delaware Valley club and a few others, including Peachtree). I am sure experience may vary from region to region. I have found them to be a very welcoming group, no pretending, reasonable, pretty nice, relaxed bunch of people. A real focus on the people, driving education, and (intelligent) safety. I still run with them just with the P-car because of this atmosphere. I feel they operate more as a car club than a "rent a track" place to come in, drive fast and get out. Maybe this is not a match with what you are looking for.

Actually, I have found PCA rules to be even more varied than CCA's, with differences in equipment requirements, safety procedures, promotion to higher run groups, etc. from one chapter to another. In the end, you just have to find the groups you fit with...

Good luck!

FM

Lemming

I find it sad that some people are so insecure that they don't want someone in their right seat. I am alway trying to get better drivers to ride with me so that I can learn. I was working on my current build today trying to determine if I could keep my right seat or not, turns out that I can't (accusump, cooler, etc). I have to admit, I'm not happy as I liked a car that I could run a right seat for DE's and coaching, and then remove for racing.

Lemming

Actually, I think this is one of the issues that DE's have. DE's are not meant to be a test and tune, sorry When I want to test and tune my race car, I get 4 friends together and rent Talladega Grand Prix, or wait for a test and tune day prior to a race. A DE is meant to be a learning experience. It is true that you can test and tune you car while at at DE, but you then have to follow their rules and learn and drive with people who are there to run a DE. I enjoy racing and instructing at DE's and do my best to realize that they completely different events.

Additionally, when people sign up for a DE event, the participant types in their information on previous events and experience. What if a novice in a TT, GT3, or GTR puts down that they have 25 track days and in reality have 3? It is extremely difficult for a club to check up on everyone. Giving check rides is one way to determine if someone is exaggerating their experience or just plain suck at driving. It is also the best way to move a talented driver up the group ladder.

Seth Thomas

I understand your confusion on this one but I also know how the Peachtree BMWCCA operates on this one. Every student from their Group A (advanced) to Group D (beginners) have an instructor assigned to them. This does not matter based on past experience or how well the student describes themselves prior to the event. They instructor can sign off the student and they can go solo but their policy puts an instructor in the car for the first ride of the weekend at a minimum. Call it a checkout ride.

All their instructors attend the weekend for free at no charge. The only charge for instructors is the Friday test day if they choose to attend. They also limit the run groups to a certain number and they fill up.


The race/no instruct policy comes from them doing it in the past and the students complained the instructors spent more time working on their racecars, didn't show up for sessions because of racecar stuff, or the racers made big mistakes in the race/instructing because they were too tired from running around all weekend for some plastic trophies.

mglobe

Well put. It baffles me that so many people find this so difficult to understand. Perhaps they need some experience from the organizational side of a DE to get it.

pontifex4

Agreed. My only out-of-region DE so far was with NOR, and I loved their style.

Seth Thomas

I am going to defend the Peachtree Chapter BMWCCA in this thread. I have been attending their events since 1998 along with about every other organization doing trackdays. The Peachtree Chapter events are one of the best organized out there. Every student has an instructor, they allow solo drivers at the instructors discretion, the sessions start on time, and they were one of the first to allow open passing in the advanced groups.

From attending a lot of the other events out there I believe some of the issues associated in this thread with BMWs is not true. It depends on the region you are attending and the club. Example is the BMWCCA events in the Northeast are run a lot different to what I am used to here in the South. The events here are run more like a Chin event compared to the events in the Northeast. PCA runs events different here than they do in the north or even the midwest. I have been to some events where having a professional driving coach was frowned upon. And this was with some of the clubs mentioned in here as those some have never had a problem with.

The complaints that I am reading here centered around the BMWCCA seem to be coming from the people who prefer to run with Chin or a more open track type of event. They are the events that are very laid back where instructors are only for the beginners. These events are not ran by volunteers getting paid nothing for their time. So the organizers attitude is better suited to handle every attitude of driver out there. They also give a lot of track time for the money giving a higher perceived value for the attendees.

Chin Motorsports is the events that I prefer to attend as they are the most accomadating for every driver out there. THey have instructors for those that need them. They have some of the best drivers attending the events. They cars there are always some of the best. Mark and Maria put on one of the most organized events. And they are very inviting to individuals hiring a driver coach for the weekend. At the same time I feel the Peachtree BMWCCA events are ran the closest to a Chin event for the club organized events I have been to.

Ritter v4.0

I forgot to say that I did the BMW race school at RA few years back and it was excellent. Really first rate. But there was some guest race instructor -young blond kid- fresh off a win at the Petit Lemans weekend- couldn't understand a word he said. Seemed like a nice guy though.

I think I could make a distinction bewteen the DE and the race organizers at BMW- but I'll back off and won't. Neither is an easy job with many disparate interests to balance.

race911

Golden Gate BMW events are a joy to instruct. Open passing, which I think was pushed through from our guys locally, for the past (at least) two years. Racing clinic they've put on occasionally works as a good stepping stone, too.

Guess it helps that I pretty much know everyone who's who in putting them on.

Only car they've discouraged me from bringing on track is the Radical. We usually don't get any race cars inside the DE group, and there usually isn't even a "A" standalone group. Bunch of beginners knowing nothing about their E92 M3s who overflow D to the extent there's a D1 and D2.

Veloce Raptor

Absolutely spot-on. Same here.

+2

Could not agree more on all points. Thanks to Seth, I have also instructed for Peachtree BMW since 2006 (when I can, since I live 1200 miles away) and they are really cool folks who run a well oiled on-time event that provides a safe learning experience for EVERYONE. And Chin is also a big winner, for all the reasons specified.

MikeJim

Back to the original post, which...as always...seems to have gotten lost in the discussion.

No check rides on Friday for first-time attendees.

"Our club rules and such do not permit us to have a first time attendee at one of our schools participate on the Friday sessions," said Peachtree Chapter Chairman Eric Nissen. "They require that a participating student be with us for 2 schools as a signed off advanced student to be included. I'm sure you are qualified but I can't change these rules."

Lemming

Friday has always been a day for the instructors and those that are "invited" to join in. The "invited" are typically those that have run with the club on multiple occasions and are being considered as instructors.