Testicles… How to grow them?
06-03-2011, 12:42 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Actually, and in all seriousness, I have an idea of what you're doing from when I did ride with you:
1) yes, the wreck is in your head, so you're just going to have to get over that, nobody can do that but you.
2) but what you're doing is this: you're braking at the right time, and just when you should lift off the brake, you jab it just a bit harder, like you're unsure of yourself and your speed. That destroys any momentum.
3) plus...I'm not convinced you're car is still really set up. Maybe it's me, but it felt way too tail happy when I tried to push it.
I think many of us do what was said above, and focus on our braking point instead of 'eyes up' into the turn. focus on being 'there' - up ahead, not being 'here' - where you currently are. This is why many of us go faster when we're chasing someone, we're focusing on catching them - looking ahead, and not necessarily what is happening directly under our car.
Who's coaching you, Brian?
1) yes, the wreck is in your head, so you're just going to have to get over that, nobody can do that but you.
2) but what you're doing is this: you're braking at the right time, and just when you should lift off the brake, you jab it just a bit harder, like you're unsure of yourself and your speed. That destroys any momentum.
3) plus...I'm not convinced you're car is still really set up. Maybe it's me, but it felt way too tail happy when I tried to push it.
I think many of us do what was said above, and focus on our braking point instead of 'eyes up' into the turn. focus on being 'there' - up ahead, not being 'here' - where you currently are. This is why many of us go faster when we're chasing someone, we're focusing on catching them - looking ahead, and not necessarily what is happening directly under our car.
Who's coaching you, Brian?
2) Yes
3) Maybe - I made a few changes since then that have helped, but that’s one of the questions for Brian (yes getting on his schedule) let him drive the car again and make reconditions....
Knitting is starting to sound like a good option…
06-03-2011, 12:48 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I don't mean to steal your thread - this is about your driving, not mine... but I thought you'd like to see this data. I'm driving the blue trace, someone with far more experience is driving the red trace. Notice 2 things: the peaks in braking force vs. the nice "flat-topped mountains", and the friction circles. The red driver was able to keep the car much more balanced going into the corners which, in this case yielded a faster lap time.
Do you have any data we can look at?
(Also, as a side note, I've been driving this car for 11 years; the blue driver had done 3 laps!)
Do you have any data we can look at?
(Also, as a side note, I've been driving this car for 11 years; the blue driver had done 3 laps!)
No logger yet.... I need to bump that up the priorities list.... I will have some after coaching that I will share.
Interested in what others have to say, but your graphs look pretty darn close to my untrained eye....
06-03-2011, 01:00 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
One small suggestion, particularly if you are out on your own: don't try and solve everything all at the same time. To develop trust in the grip and how much speed you can carry pick one or two corners and focus on them. A corner with good runoff or one thay you have a comfort level with, forget the rest of the track work on other things in the other corners. Once you develop confidence in the grip in one corner you can begin to apply the same confidence in cornering abilty in the others....and you will find you are carrying more speed and higher G's in the corners you aren't working on as a matter of course...then move to different corners and start all over again...
Too often we are thinking about how we blew the last apex or could of come into the corner earler bla bla bla, and driven through two other corners not mentally prepared for what we needed to acomplish, break it down to make it simple...put it all together later in the day...
Too often we are thinking about how we blew the last apex or could of come into the corner earler bla bla bla, and driven through two other corners not mentally prepared for what we needed to acomplish, break it down to make it simple...put it all together later in the day...
06-03-2011, 02:19 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
I don't know what the set-up is on your car, but you might consider lowering your spring rates a bit. On coil spring cars I think a lot of guys go too stiff to start out, because that's what the "fast" set-up is. Lowering the spring rates can help the car to not be so twitchy--- more comfortable to find the limit.
Going fast is all about confidence--in your car, your abilities, the track surface, and those around you. Doubting any of those things will slow you down.
Going fast is all about confidence--in your car, your abilities, the track surface, and those around you. Doubting any of those things will slow you down.
Last edited by flatsics; 06-03-2011 at 02:56 AM.
06-03-2011, 03:48 AM
#35
Burning Brakes
Barring FDA approval of growacet… How do you master “more gas less brake”? I’m 3-4 seconds off of class pace, and know the problem. I brake too much…
I’m cursing myself all the way from turn-in to apex (could be carrying much more speed) then to add insult to injury my relatively underpowered car can’t make it back up on exit….
So let’s hear it, how do I grow some? I’m getting some professional coaching next week… But would like to hear from the peanut gallery…
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
I’m cursing myself all the way from turn-in to apex (could be carrying much more speed) then to add insult to injury my relatively underpowered car can’t make it back up on exit….
So let’s hear it, how do I grow some? I’m getting some professional coaching next week… But would like to hear from the peanut gallery…
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
06-03-2011, 03:56 AM
#36
Burning Brakes
Also, have a pro/instructor do laps in your car to gather baseline data for you to work towards matching. Data doesn't lie. It they turn in at 75mph..... than so can you.
06-03-2011, 04:29 AM
#37
Three Wheelin'
More from the peanut gallery. Some great comments already. First some questions....
What kind of car is it? Is it a heavier car on big sticky DOTS? Or a light car on big sticky slicks? Or what, exactly?
How much experience do you have? How much in DE situations where you had an instructor and/or were highly focused on the craft? Is this what you focus on most of the time in the paddock?
How do you know you are that far off the pace? I believe that as it stands, a specific car has a specific performance potential. This varies even by the nanosecond, but let us say on a specific day at a specific track it has x potential for y laptime. How do you know you are consistently going slower than y? Do you go faster and faster each session, each day on a given weekend or are you truly stuck at z laptime, with z being slower than what you assess as y (fastest possible for your car)?
Do you feel less than expert with all types of braking situations or just some types? If so, what types?
Do you use video in the car? If so do you have something in the camera FOV that allows you to watch and know when the brakes are coming on? In my experience this can be very helpful, and moves you far, far along the benefit curve in terms of data acq. use to identify driver performance improvement opportunities.
Have you taken many rides in your own car or a very similar car as Scott has suggested? Do you feel confident in that situation that the car will slow down or do you have the same types of feelings of... uncertainty as when you drive your own car?
___________
I like the comments on weight transfer, but in some braking situations for some types of corners this may be a lot less valuable
I like the comments on keeping the eyes up, that is kind of a given.
I like Scott's comments about riding with others in your car or very similar cars that are lapping closer to y consistently. And perhaps focusing on the feeling you get as they get "up on the tires." I worked hard with my wife on that in turn 2 at Thunderhill which is an excellent 3rd gear sweeper type of turn for this type of thing. Do you have turns where you can particularly focus on this type of passenger seat-of-the pants deal?
I like the comments on is it the car or the driver, that is whether your car is reasonably well set up or if it has an unusual problem on turn in, corner entry, et cetera. I can think of a number of situations with a heavy car or a light car might have a prep/set-up issue that might cause trepidation. And especially a turbocharged car.
I am not sure what they teach in other places. In this thread and others I have heard mention of DE instruction teaching late apexes and braking only in a straight line. I have been at this since 1987 and instructing for a long time as well, and I have never heard of anyone teaching those things to newbies. If it does happen, I am not sure I would agree with the approach... in any case I cannot assume braking only in a straight line is holding you back. Do you think it is?
Great that you will be getting some coaching. I am not a believer that the best coaches are those that race, or used to race. To me racing has nothing to do with teaching people to go faster. One of the best instructors I know does not race. He is an excellent driver and instructor, multi-time CDI, and an excellent teacher.
I started at LRP back in '87 and later came out here to NorCal and started doing DE's where there was a strong time trial culture. Here in the PCA Golden Gate Region. Here I noticed a super high percentage of the attendees had a super high percentage of focus on the craft of going faster. Not a lot of complaining about passing and traffic, or talk about Motons, which brands of sticky tires, is it the car or is it the driver, what type of camera are you running, what type of data acq. do you have, oxygenated fuel adding significant bhp, and all of the more modern stuff. Lots of conversation in the paddock about how to go faster. Just a lot of the folks (men and women) excited to learn to go faster and prep for the Sunday afternoon time trial where everyone would be watching, What I have seen in these more modern times with other groups are folks that get off the learning path really early early in their experience... and they get stuck. Caught up in all of the muck. Off the learning path. I have especially seen this with attendees of events put on by businesses that have a very limited number of qualified instructors available. So great that you will work with someone on going faster... and of course consider doing it for more than just one event.
To me, in the end, no one can tell you how much or when to brake. There are lots of ways to identify opportunities for input changes that can help one use, and more consistently use the car's performance potential x, to achieve, and/or more consistently achieve lap time y or darn near close to it.
I always start with the same approach for myself and my students... instead of braking focus, I like to focus on exit speed. The concept of losing just enough speed, and no more, to achieve optimal exit speed. And by that the earliest possible achievement of WOT, or in cases between corners (puzzle pieces) whatever percentage of throttle opening is the most I can get at the soonest time. I got this from the Skip Barber video back in 1987 before my first ever driving event in my 944 at LRP. He says something like... you can reduce laptimes by hundredths by braking later, you can achieve reductions of tenths by getting to the gas sooner. As a result, I never suggest to a student to brake later or less hard. Instead I suggest considering losing less speed to achieve what we both agree (and comfortably agree) is an improvement on the achievement of WOT. Subtle difference that seems to work with many of my students. In my car I have a green light that is connected to a microswitch on the throttle body so I can see when WOT happens in the video. If I want I can break this down to a video frame. And of course I have the old school light in the FOV that comes on with the brakes.
Good luck and please let us know how things go with your coaching session(s).
What kind of car is it? Is it a heavier car on big sticky DOTS? Or a light car on big sticky slicks? Or what, exactly?
How much experience do you have? How much in DE situations where you had an instructor and/or were highly focused on the craft? Is this what you focus on most of the time in the paddock?
How do you know you are that far off the pace? I believe that as it stands, a specific car has a specific performance potential. This varies even by the nanosecond, but let us say on a specific day at a specific track it has x potential for y laptime. How do you know you are consistently going slower than y? Do you go faster and faster each session, each day on a given weekend or are you truly stuck at z laptime, with z being slower than what you assess as y (fastest possible for your car)?
Do you feel less than expert with all types of braking situations or just some types? If so, what types?
Do you use video in the car? If so do you have something in the camera FOV that allows you to watch and know when the brakes are coming on? In my experience this can be very helpful, and moves you far, far along the benefit curve in terms of data acq. use to identify driver performance improvement opportunities.
Have you taken many rides in your own car or a very similar car as Scott has suggested? Do you feel confident in that situation that the car will slow down or do you have the same types of feelings of... uncertainty as when you drive your own car?
___________
I like the comments on weight transfer, but in some braking situations for some types of corners this may be a lot less valuable
I like the comments on keeping the eyes up, that is kind of a given.
I like Scott's comments about riding with others in your car or very similar cars that are lapping closer to y consistently. And perhaps focusing on the feeling you get as they get "up on the tires." I worked hard with my wife on that in turn 2 at Thunderhill which is an excellent 3rd gear sweeper type of turn for this type of thing. Do you have turns where you can particularly focus on this type of passenger seat-of-the pants deal?
I like the comments on is it the car or the driver, that is whether your car is reasonably well set up or if it has an unusual problem on turn in, corner entry, et cetera. I can think of a number of situations with a heavy car or a light car might have a prep/set-up issue that might cause trepidation. And especially a turbocharged car.
I am not sure what they teach in other places. In this thread and others I have heard mention of DE instruction teaching late apexes and braking only in a straight line. I have been at this since 1987 and instructing for a long time as well, and I have never heard of anyone teaching those things to newbies. If it does happen, I am not sure I would agree with the approach... in any case I cannot assume braking only in a straight line is holding you back. Do you think it is?
Great that you will be getting some coaching. I am not a believer that the best coaches are those that race, or used to race. To me racing has nothing to do with teaching people to go faster. One of the best instructors I know does not race. He is an excellent driver and instructor, multi-time CDI, and an excellent teacher.
I started at LRP back in '87 and later came out here to NorCal and started doing DE's where there was a strong time trial culture. Here in the PCA Golden Gate Region. Here I noticed a super high percentage of the attendees had a super high percentage of focus on the craft of going faster. Not a lot of complaining about passing and traffic, or talk about Motons, which brands of sticky tires, is it the car or is it the driver, what type of camera are you running, what type of data acq. do you have, oxygenated fuel adding significant bhp, and all of the more modern stuff. Lots of conversation in the paddock about how to go faster. Just a lot of the folks (men and women) excited to learn to go faster and prep for the Sunday afternoon time trial where everyone would be watching, What I have seen in these more modern times with other groups are folks that get off the learning path really early early in their experience... and they get stuck. Caught up in all of the muck. Off the learning path. I have especially seen this with attendees of events put on by businesses that have a very limited number of qualified instructors available. So great that you will work with someone on going faster... and of course consider doing it for more than just one event.
To me, in the end, no one can tell you how much or when to brake. There are lots of ways to identify opportunities for input changes that can help one use, and more consistently use the car's performance potential x, to achieve, and/or more consistently achieve lap time y or darn near close to it.
I always start with the same approach for myself and my students... instead of braking focus, I like to focus on exit speed. The concept of losing just enough speed, and no more, to achieve optimal exit speed. And by that the earliest possible achievement of WOT, or in cases between corners (puzzle pieces) whatever percentage of throttle opening is the most I can get at the soonest time. I got this from the Skip Barber video back in 1987 before my first ever driving event in my 944 at LRP. He says something like... you can reduce laptimes by hundredths by braking later, you can achieve reductions of tenths by getting to the gas sooner. As a result, I never suggest to a student to brake later or less hard. Instead I suggest considering losing less speed to achieve what we both agree (and comfortably agree) is an improvement on the achievement of WOT. Subtle difference that seems to work with many of my students. In my car I have a green light that is connected to a microswitch on the throttle body so I can see when WOT happens in the video. If I want I can break this down to a video frame. And of course I have the old school light in the FOV that comes on with the brakes.
Good luck and please let us know how things go with your coaching session(s).
Last edited by Mahler9th; 06-03-2011 at 04:46 AM.
06-03-2011, 08:50 AM
#38
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>Driving faster requires an amalgam of styles and tactics of faster drivers.
>Accomplish one goal at a time.
>Practice produces less risk at high speed.
>Add understanding in small doses.
>Think for yourself with the advice of others as a resource.
> Feel passion for the thrill of it all.
>Accomplish one goal at a time.
>Practice produces less risk at high speed.
>Add understanding in small doses.
>Think for yourself with the advice of others as a resource.
> Feel passion for the thrill of it all.
06-03-2011, 09:44 AM
#39
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Jeff used to be faster. He's been at this for years, with a bit of a hiatus after the wreck. But he can be faster.
All kidding aside, just get your confidence back, and you'll be fine. Just read through your posts, and think of everything you say when you get off the track. Never is it "ok, I think I'm getting it" or "got better that time". Its always "what a pansy I am". Or the 'Take up knitting' comment. You lack confidence, then get frustrated about the outcome.
Forget about the wreck. You came out fine, with relatively minimal damage to the car (could have been worse). Learn from it, and do better, not worse. I've been in your shoes, and mine were much worse. But I never think of it when I'm driving.
Funny thing is, we talk about all this when we're at the track, but since all your Porsche decisions are determined by Rennlist posts (tell me I'm wrong!?!) maybe you'll believe me now that its up here...
All kidding aside, just get your confidence back, and you'll be fine. Just read through your posts, and think of everything you say when you get off the track. Never is it "ok, I think I'm getting it" or "got better that time". Its always "what a pansy I am". Or the 'Take up knitting' comment. You lack confidence, then get frustrated about the outcome.
Forget about the wreck. You came out fine, with relatively minimal damage to the car (could have been worse). Learn from it, and do better, not worse. I've been in your shoes, and mine were much worse. But I never think of it when I'm driving.
Funny thing is, we talk about all this when we're at the track, but since all your Porsche decisions are determined by Rennlist posts (tell me I'm wrong!?!) maybe you'll believe me now that its up here...
__________________
Bob Saville
Getting You On Track!
www.naroescapemotorsports.com
704-395-2975
'07 SPC
'71 914/6 Huey
'04 GT3
Bob Saville
Getting You On Track!
www.naroescapemotorsports.com
704-395-2975
- Data Analysis & Coaching
- Drivers Gear
- Crew Gear
- Car Gear
'07 SPC
'71 914/6 Huey
'04 GT3
06-03-2011, 09:49 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Jeff used to be faster. He's been at this for years, with a bit of a hiatus after the wreck. But he can be faster.
All kidding aside, just get your confidence back, and you'll be fine. Just read through your posts, and think of everything you say when you get off the track. Never is it "ok, I think I'm getting it" or "got better that time". Its always "what a pansy I am". Or the 'Take up knitting' comment. You lack confidence, then get frustrated about the outcome.
Forget about the wreck. You came out fine, with relatively minimal damage to the car (could have been worse). Learn from it, and do better, not worse. I've been in your shoes, and mine were much worse. But I never think of it when I'm driving.
Funny thing is, we talk about all this when we're at the track, but since all your Porsche decisions are determined by Rennlist posts (tell me I'm wrong!?!) maybe you'll believe me now that its up here...
All kidding aside, just get your confidence back, and you'll be fine. Just read through your posts, and think of everything you say when you get off the track. Never is it "ok, I think I'm getting it" or "got better that time". Its always "what a pansy I am". Or the 'Take up knitting' comment. You lack confidence, then get frustrated about the outcome.
Forget about the wreck. You came out fine, with relatively minimal damage to the car (could have been worse). Learn from it, and do better, not worse. I've been in your shoes, and mine were much worse. But I never think of it when I'm driving.
Funny thing is, we talk about all this when we're at the track, but since all your Porsche decisions are determined by Rennlist posts (tell me I'm wrong!?!) maybe you'll believe me now that its up here...
06-03-2011, 10:39 AM
#41
Drifting
Barring FDA approval of growacet… How do you master “more gas less brake”? I’m 3-4 seconds off of class pace, and know the problem. I brake too much…
I’m cursing myself all the way from turn-in to apex (could be carrying much more speed) then to add insult to injury my relatively underpowered car can’t make it back up on exit….
So let’s hear it, how do I grow some? I’m getting some professional coaching next week… But would like to hear from the peanut gallery…
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
I’m cursing myself all the way from turn-in to apex (could be carrying much more speed) then to add insult to injury my relatively underpowered car can’t make it back up on exit….
So let’s hear it, how do I grow some? I’m getting some professional coaching next week… But would like to hear from the peanut gallery…
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
06-03-2011, 10:49 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Jeff, come up to Chin over the 4th of July holiday. I'll be there working w/ VR in my 993 and would be cool to see some data between two similar cars. I'm close to G-class with the exception of full weight and an open diff. I think I have the Moton Motorsports figured out, but we'll see what VR says. Also, I know there's a 2:09 in my car on the full course. Best I could muster last week was a 2:11.6... Looking forward to getting VR in the passenger seat.
Here's a video with the JIC setup and full rubber: http://vimeo.com/9902811
-Paddy
Here's a video with the JIC setup and full rubber: http://vimeo.com/9902811
-Paddy
06-03-2011, 11:00 AM
#43
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I don't know if this applies, but often, overbraking is the result of not looking into the corner while braking. One fixates on the braking point but by not "seeing" the corner, we can't figure out the correct entry speed. This makes people stay on the brakes more than necessary. This may not be the reason in your particular case, it's just a fairly typical problem.
Best,
Best,
Mine shrivel up dramatically when I start shortening up my vision.
Looking through the corner makes it feel less scary.
