Overcoming tentative braking
05-19-2011, 12:57 AM
#61
Nordschleife Master
You are on the right track. Try not to focus too much on your speed going into a braking zone. Try instead to focus on your speed coming out of the corner - or more accurately, not your speed but how much sooner you have to shift. If you are going faster you will find you have to shift sooner.
But the FIRST thing you need to do is be consistent. You need to be able to brake at the same point over and over again, and hit the apex the same way over and over again - within centimeters, not feet. As you get faster you will learn to brake at the same point, but HARDER in order to make the corner. Eventually you will not be able to make the corner properly. Then you will realise that you have to brake a little earlier and set the car up earlier and you can carry more speed through the corner. This is the part that everyone here is harping on - but I don't think you've quite reached this point yet. I think you are probably just braking earlier due to comfort and complacency and not because you are significantly faster to the braking point.
I strongly believe that you need to step beyond the limits of your tires and comfort zone before you know what the maximum is. I'm not saying go off track or crash into a wall.. but find a safe corner where there is lots of pavement runoff and brake just a little bit later each time until you go a bit wide and have to really slow down to make it. If you do, so what. you learned something.
Work on consistency and try to set a goal or exercise for yourself and see if you can accomplish it. My last track day I set a goal for myself for this exact exercise. I wanted to see how late and how little I can brake into Turn1 without being slow out of the corner. I made a note of where I was braking (I used the passing of the #3 marker leaving my peripheral vision as I looked to the apex and beyond (it's a 190deg turn)) and then I made a note of where I was hitting my shift up point leaving the corner.
Not everyone will agree with my approach, but it works for me.
But the FIRST thing you need to do is be consistent. You need to be able to brake at the same point over and over again, and hit the apex the same way over and over again - within centimeters, not feet. As you get faster you will learn to brake at the same point, but HARDER in order to make the corner. Eventually you will not be able to make the corner properly. Then you will realise that you have to brake a little earlier and set the car up earlier and you can carry more speed through the corner. This is the part that everyone here is harping on - but I don't think you've quite reached this point yet. I think you are probably just braking earlier due to comfort and complacency and not because you are significantly faster to the braking point.
I strongly believe that you need to step beyond the limits of your tires and comfort zone before you know what the maximum is. I'm not saying go off track or crash into a wall.. but find a safe corner where there is lots of pavement runoff and brake just a little bit later each time until you go a bit wide and have to really slow down to make it. If you do, so what. you learned something.
Work on consistency and try to set a goal or exercise for yourself and see if you can accomplish it. My last track day I set a goal for myself for this exact exercise. I wanted to see how late and how little I can brake into Turn1 without being slow out of the corner. I made a note of where I was braking (I used the passing of the #3 marker leaving my peripheral vision as I looked to the apex and beyond (it's a 190deg turn)) and then I made a note of where I was hitting my shift up point leaving the corner.
Not everyone will agree with my approach, but it works for me.
Rich,
I am using track reference points, distance #s on boards, markings on the track, eg visual references unique to each corner. For each corner I am remembering my last time through and trying to see if I had more available speed to carry through the corner; how the car was feeling upon entry; as well as my comfort level.
At this point I am thinking the immediate problem that I am having is not looking far enough ahead - eg through the apex and beyond. Using my last driving event at WG, I went through a couple of laps in my head and I am positive that I am making sure that I slow to a reasonable speed and then move through the corner, instead of picking a braking point and then driving the car through the corner, speeding up if I braked too soon, and then adjusting my braking point next time around.
I am using track reference points, distance #s on boards, markings on the track, eg visual references unique to each corner. For each corner I am remembering my last time through and trying to see if I had more available speed to carry through the corner; how the car was feeling upon entry; as well as my comfort level.
At this point I am thinking the immediate problem that I am having is not looking far enough ahead - eg through the apex and beyond. Using my last driving event at WG, I went through a couple of laps in my head and I am positive that I am making sure that I slow to a reasonable speed and then move through the corner, instead of picking a braking point and then driving the car through the corner, speeding up if I braked too soon, and then adjusting my braking point next time around.
Last edited by Rich Sandor; 05-19-2011 at 01:00 PM.
05-19-2011, 08:22 AM
#62
Rennlist Member
Note the commonality with all the other ones that have come off their rails & died? What's really disturbing is the incredibly bad & incorrect advice being spewed into this thread/forum. Oh well. Folks will decide who & what to believe.... I, for one, do like and want to learn to drive better. I respect your coaching and driving background. But I also respect the experience of others who've been successful at it, too. Is there any feedback you can provide based upon the comments I posted earlier?
05-19-2011, 08:48 AM
#63
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Normally aspirated 944 was my very first Porsche hombre!
I drive a 924S NA, run 951 struts/shocks and camber plates, but stripped for racing, stock brakes with hawk pads.
I'm still learning -- but I'm amazed how well the car will stick and
how much I had (and still have) to learn. Especially with camber in the corners.
Good examples:
First time out at TWS (CCW) turn 6 used to be stop, put on turn signal, make
sure traffic cleared -- then turn into the apex.
The last time out -- it was barely a stab of the brake, turn the wheel
and hit the gas, hit the apex, track out and hold on -- two wheels hitting chalk!
7 I don't even brake (trying not to lift either) --
but I screw up 8 every time -- coming out of
7 just feels like your flying --- I always brake (or lift) too soon and
watch the grass grow waiting for 8 turn in to come up :-)https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/banghead.gif
Can't wait to work on Turn 1/2 braking as well -- our NA 944/924s can't run
down the straight fast enuf to even make T1 interesting -- I always find
I brake way to soon and have sometimes found I have to get back
on the throttle before T2 turn in -- embarrassing - but its all about
the learning curve.
Got a night race coming up a TWS in July -- that should have
some good pucker factor and braking lesson moments :-)
m
I'm still learning -- but I'm amazed how well the car will stick and
how much I had (and still have) to learn. Especially with camber in the corners.
Good examples:
First time out at TWS (CCW) turn 6 used to be stop, put on turn signal, make
sure traffic cleared -- then turn into the apex.
The last time out -- it was barely a stab of the brake, turn the wheel
and hit the gas, hit the apex, track out and hold on -- two wheels hitting chalk!
7 I don't even brake (trying not to lift either) --
but I screw up 8 every time -- coming out of
7 just feels like your flying --- I always brake (or lift) too soon and
watch the grass grow waiting for 8 turn in to come up :-)https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/banghead.gif
Can't wait to work on Turn 1/2 braking as well -- our NA 944/924s can't run
down the straight fast enuf to even make T1 interesting -- I always find
I brake way to soon and have sometimes found I have to get back
on the throttle before T2 turn in -- embarrassing - but its all about
the learning curve.
Got a night race coming up a TWS in July -- that should have
some good pucker factor and braking lesson moments :-)
m
You're taking advantage of the very best trait of your car and that's the handling. Awesome you're cleaving through those corners at higher and higher speeds. This is the only way you're going to win. Know all about it muchacho... I'm also am old Lotus hand and I'd brake so damn late into curves with such high rates of speed it would sometimes make skid marks in two places.
However, once it got straight... it was all over for me!
Want you to carb up @ either Martin's BBQ or Chicken Oil in Bryan before hitting the track.
05-19-2011, 08:51 AM
#64
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05-19-2011, 09:24 AM
#65
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It is sad when a thread discussion comes down to a pissing match. I'm not entirely sure why its happened here, or why one set of opinions MUST be the only correct one. Discussion is healthy for everyone.
I, for one, do like and want to learn to drive better. I respect your coaching and driving background. But I also respect the experience of others who've been successful at it, too. Is there any feedback you can provide based upon the comments I posted earlier?
I, for one, do like and want to learn to drive better. I respect your coaching and driving background. But I also respect the experience of others who've been successful at it, too. Is there any feedback you can provide based upon the comments I posted earlier?
Some techniques DO work better than others. Some comments below.
A que that I use and teach is that if you find you need to apply throttle between turn-in and the apex, then you've entered the corner too slow. I try to enter the corner such that my entrance speed is the max I can use, and that I've accomplished it only by the amount of braking used before, and even slightly after turn-in (trail braking). Trail braking at turn-in also helps put more weight on the front tires, to improve traction.
In order to achieve the proper entry speed, it greatly helps if your braking consistent and repeatable. I always jump on students who don't break evenly before the turn. Easing up and down on the brake pedal does not achieve consitency. You can start by picking an early brake point/marker and apply 100% committed braking effort, and holding it until you're clearly at or below your desired entry speed. If its well before the turn-in point, then you know you can brake later. The objective is to find the same braking point each lap, with a firm, committed brake application, that get you to the proper entry speed at turn-in so that you don't feel the need for throttle until you get to the apex.
Couple of caveats:
In order to achieve the proper entry speed, it greatly helps if your braking consistent and repeatable. I always jump on students who don't break evenly before the turn. Easing up and down on the brake pedal does not achieve consitency. You can start by picking an early brake point/marker and apply 100% committed braking effort, and holding it until you're clearly at or below your desired entry speed. If its well before the turn-in point, then you know you can brake later. The objective is to find the same braking point each lap, with a firm, committed brake application, that get you to the proper entry speed at turn-in so that you don't feel the need for throttle until you get to the apex.
Couple of caveats:
- Not each corner is exactly the same. The above is primarliy applicable to a corner at the end of a long, fast straightaway. The corner's speed, line before and line after need to be taken into consideration. But, the objective of entering the corner at proper speed still applies in almost 100% of turns.
- Remember that what happens in the preceeding track section will affect the next section. If you've worked up your speed in the corner at the beginning of a long straight, the extra exit speed will carry as additional speed when you get to the next braking zone. You would need to brake earlier in order to scrub off the additional speed. Learning to drive the entire track is basically a series of dominoe events that you need to manage.
- I also find that as cornering speed increases due to experience, you may reach a point where you find it difficult to get down to the apex properly, moreso in some corners versus others. What's happening is that your increased entry speed is causing your car to drift slightly. If you try to force the car to the apex by turning more, you may end up breaking traction at the back and cause a spin. Instead, you should try turning in slightly earlier, and then let the car drift to the apex, without providing the extra steering input.
When you open their eyes, they see that much of it was driver induced, and that slight adjustments in their behavior can have huge positive impacts on the car's behavior. I agree with a firm committed brake application, followed by graceful brake release to settle the chassis & suspension. I do not agree with threshhold braking in qualifying or when trying to do fast laps. It is counterproductive. 
Your last bullet point above...IMO as folks driver faster & faster, and better & better, hitting some apexes becomes less important. I said SOME. IMO it is more important in some corners to carry maximum speed that it is to maneuver the car to the apex. This doesn't mean be 10' wide, but a foot? 2'? no big deal if you're hauling the mail. But it takes real experience to determine which corners these are.
05-19-2011, 09:57 AM
#67
Rennlist Member
i am trying to practice now rolling out right foot over from brake to gas as i still cannot make my left foot work properly. is it really such a critical skill - to learn how to brake with left foot? I just want to understand if it is really something I should waste more and more time on or not.
05-19-2011, 10:09 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
obviously the key is the smoothness of transition from trail braking to gas.
i am trying to practice now rolling out right foot over from brake to gas as i still cannot make my left foot work properly. is it really such a critical skill - to learn how to brake with left foot? I just want to understand if it is really something I should waste more and more time on or not.
i am trying to practice now rolling out right foot over from brake to gas as i still cannot make my left foot work properly. is it really such a critical skill - to learn how to brake with left foot? I just want to understand if it is really something I should waste more and more time on or not.
05-19-2011, 10:20 AM
#69
Rennlist Member
obviously the key is the smoothness of transition from trail braking to gas.
i am trying to practice now rolling out right foot over from brake to gas as i still cannot make my left foot work properly. is it really such a critical skill - to learn how to brake with left foot? I just want to understand if it is really something I should waste more and more time on or not.
i am trying to practice now rolling out right foot over from brake to gas as i still cannot make my left foot work properly. is it really such a critical skill - to learn how to brake with left foot? I just want to understand if it is really something I should waste more and more time on or not.
It takes a while to develop proper feel in order to be able to modulate the brake. Early on, you'll either be pressing too hard or too soft. Be patient.
05-19-2011, 10:21 AM
#70
Rennlist Member
well, i see, i expected such an answer, just wonder how many years it will take to make it work. imho if such stuff was not learned in teenage years now it literally takes ages to get used to.
05-19-2011, 10:22 AM
#71
Race Director
If you want to be the best and use every tool out there you need to learn left foot braking as it will give you an edge over competitors in certain places on certain tracks. Why give up on a techinque that could me the difference between winning not making the top 5 in highly competitive race field.
BTW.. if you autocross LFB is even more important as you can get by without alot gear changes and since everything timed any slight gain is massivly important.
05-19-2011, 10:24 AM
#72
Rennlist Member
05-19-2011, 10:27 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
BTW I did post a data trace for it a couple of days ago so just search. The immediate difference pedal transition timing. There is none. Even if your really fast gas to brake is .2 secs before corner entry. Start adding it up on tracks where you carry a gear into a corner. Grip improves also.
05-19-2011, 10:28 AM
#74
Drifting
what track would yield 2 seconds to LFB if already driven properly w/o LFB?
05-19-2011, 10:34 AM
#75
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utkinpol--
This is just from the peanut gallery, so take it with a grain of salt.
Left foot braking requires more than moving your left foot over the center pedal. The next time out, try lifting / shifting your left knee, lower leg and foot directly above the center pedal. Make sure you're at a safe place on the track with no traffic and plenty of runoff.
This is just from the peanut gallery, so take it with a grain of salt.
Left foot braking requires more than moving your left foot over the center pedal. The next time out, try lifting / shifting your left knee, lower leg and foot directly above the center pedal. Make sure you're at a safe place on the track with no traffic and plenty of runoff.