M758

The reason is that when you focus on braking hard it is easy to over do it and screw up the rest of the corner. Braking hard, deep and precicesly is the hardest thing you will ever do on a race track. So trying to work on that first will cause you many mistakes and 90% of the time that means blowing the rest of the corner at minimum.

Far better to work on big time chunks first.

So start with corner exit. Be able to get max power for conditions to get a good exit. Once you can manage that focus on mid corner speed. I consider it mid corner speed rather than corner entry because if you are focused on get the mid corner right it will force you think ahead as you enter the corner. As you approach the braking zone think not about the braking, but about getting the midcorner speed correct. That puts you infront of the car and be default get you in the right mind set for turing. That is brakes are only there to allow you the right midcorner speed so that you can accelerate out. Only once you hvae mastered mid corner speed does it makes sense seek out the final tiny bid and extent braking zone. By this time you will now what good mid corner speed is you can easily feel what it like to blow your braking.

The fact is 90% of time when drivers try to brake hard and deep they simply out brake themselves. It is a mental thing more so than a physical thing. They put 100% of concentration in to getting hugh G load on braking and standing the car on it is nose compeltly forgetting about the corner. Thus while the do slow their way off the apex and way off the optimum speed and it is too late to fix it. So they are slow down the next straight losing all kinds of lap time even if the did pick up tenth at corner entry they lose 0.5 sec through corner and down the next straight.

M758

I think one issue that WG is different. I have never driven then, but all the in car video seem to show a particular trend. Many corners are slightly banked and thus allow more mid corner speed than you that appear. So you need to be "brave" to believe the car will stick in the corners. Camber will help you stick more than your brain will tell you. So what is result you brake too much and too soon causing you to be slow mid corner. The quick answer is brake later and deeper. Or that is how it appears.

For me Willow Springs is similar to the Glen in that it is a very fast and flowing track. Corners are taking faster than they appear to due camber and elevation changes. First time there I found myself overslowing for each corner. I could tell because I knew as went through each corner I could tell I overslowed "damn I should have gone through there faster". Well it took time to get me to really believe that.


So you do need to look ahead. Keep looking forward and thing past braking markers to focus on mid corner speed. Once you max mid corner speed you can worry about the "coasting" at corner entry. Still you need to look up and way up. The faster the corner the more in front of the track you need to look. This allows things to come at you slower tricking your mind into thinking you have more time to react allowing you to be smoother and more flowing in your inputs.

Also at the WG is there even any corner you need to go 100% ***** to the wall braking? Seems to me all those corners are places to use the brakes to slow the car and help it turn. 100% peak braking (threashold braking) is not important, but managing weight transfer is critcal.


On side note, but important one. How you come off the brakes will impact cornering balance as much as corner speed. What I mean is if you release the brakes too soon you will in fact take weight off the front of the car creating understeer and lowring the speed at which you take the corner. Releaseing the brakes right at turn in or slighly after will tend to allow the nose to bit giving you tad bit more rotation allowing you to corner slightly faster. Plus you can get back on the power to settle the rear of the car to regain control.

There is one turn at Miller motorsports park where this is key. Turn 3 at miller is fast sweeping left turn take at 80-90 mph in a 944 spec car. For us we enter the corner flat out in 4th and making the corner is dicey. Stay flat out the car tends to understeer off. However a slight lift from 100% throttle to 60% for a second causes the nose of the car to drop and the rear to get light. TDo this right as you turn in and you can feel the nose move to apex. Almost instantly you need get back on the power to settle the rear end and power through the turn at full throttle. Done right you go through there fast and smoothly. Too much lift for too long and you are either too slow or off the dirt backwards. Some guys there brake and really slow the car down to make the turn , but the fast guys use weight transfer to get the car to turn on its own preserving 95% of their speed. I bring this up becuase you can use the brakes to not just slow the car, but help it turn. This does not mean all out braking, but getting feel for mid corner speeds and using brake and gas pedal as method to get you to the optimum mid corner speed.

This is what Mario Andretti talks about we jokes "Most people think the braks are for slowing the car down". Then gives a wry smile.

Driver8

This is exactly what Peter Argetsinger and I worked on last week at the Glen. My problem corner was turn 11, I carried good speed through turn 10 only to over brake in 11.

Frank Bullitt

With the very limited HP of the OP's 944, he's going to have to develop stainless steel cojones for diving into those corners late, late... and as fast as physics will allow.

Mike in Chi

Just how fast do you want to go, Fred?

Those of us behind you think you are fast enough already.

M758

That is probably true. Most pros know how to brake very hard and very late and can still reach optimum corner speed with the car in perfect balance. That skill seperates the real pros from the wannabes.

However you will see this even at the club and DE level where the fast guys manage corner entry better than the rest. Not as good top notch pros, but noticeably better than a novice or average DE driver.

So that is where comments are based on. Too many novice DE guys will try to emulate the pros by braking so hard their eyes pop out. Well any one can slam on the brakes let the ABS keep them from locking up. The skill is doing it right and there are many many subtlies involved. Heck just slamming on brakes is not what pros do anyway. The way the apply the brakes has many sublties built in as most must get max braking without lock up and takes finesse.

So I don't disagree, but we need to remember our audience here in club land.

quickxotica

This is an enzo, but bears re-posting due to relevance:

bobt993

Mark, were focusing on where the most time is lost and learning to brake later and later is the wrong path to start down. Yes, learn to threshold brake, but learn to carry more and more corner entry before even considering later braking. Learn to be patient on the gas pedal when your sliding rather fighting with the car.

If your now a pro you will manage to: put it all together by braking later; precisely entering at max grip; and applying max throttle just at the moment you can still stay on the track.

I have seen this scenario so many times. Racer goes out to improve their best lap by pushing the brake marker forward. At best they usually gain a couple of tenths and come in with white knuckles and a good sweat. BTW if someone has data to prove otherwise please post it.

Mike in Chi

D8-
Same coach. Same lesson. Different track. (Sebring)
Peter is terrific.

All-
You can learn more about Peter and his extensive background here:

http://raceruniversity.com/faculty.html

Just look at who he's coached privately!

(BTW, this site is a Rennlist sponsor)

Veloce Raptor

Actually, it is not, except when they are fighting to race position. In qualifying? they wanna get to the gas just a little bit sooner than the next guy, and you can't do that using max last second braking. But don't confuse Mark with facts.

FredC

Ha ha!!! Mark Hupfer is making the trip to the Glen... I have to show up with all I have ;-)

Sean F

i think you guys are missing Fred's point. braking point and pressure are a means to an end, not an absolute. talking about it the other way around misses the objective of the corner

let's also not forget that in an early 911, late, hard and trailing has other benefits depending on corner type

quickxotica

And then the thread came off its rails and died.

txhokie4life

I drive a 924S NA, run 951 struts/shocks and camber plates, but stripped for racing, stock brakes with hawk pads.

I'm still learning -- but I'm amazed how well the car will stick and
how much I had (and still have) to learn. Especially with camber in the corners.

Good examples:
First time out at TWS (CCW) turn 6 used to be stop, put on turn signal, make
sure traffic cleared -- then turn into the apex.

The last time out -- it was barely a stab of the brake, turn the wheel
and hit the gas, hit the apex, track out and hold on -- two wheels hitting chalk!

7 I don't even brake (trying not to lift either) --
but I screw up 8 every time -- coming out of
7 just feels like your flying --- I always brake (or lift) too soon and
watch the grass grow waiting for 8 turn in to come up :-)https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/banghead.gif

Can't wait to work on Turn 1/2 braking as well -- our NA 944/924s can't run
down the straight fast enuf to even make T1 interesting -- I always find
I brake way to soon and have sometimes found I have to get back
on the throttle before T2 turn in -- embarrassing - but its all about
the learning curve.

Got a night race coming up a TWS in July -- that should have
some good pucker factor and braking lesson moments :-)

m

Veloce Raptor

Yup. So sad. Note the commonality with all the other ones that have come off their rails & died? What's really disturbing is the incredibly bad & incorrect advice being spewed into this thread/forum. Oh well. Folks will decide who & what to believe....