Race Fuel
05-15-2011, 02:00 PM
#31
Kibort,
The bottom line is that what you said is just plain wrong.
Think about race bikes that spin up to 16,000 RPM and have high compression. They need a high octane fuel that has a relatively quick burn rate. A high compression race car engine that spins at 8,000 RPM would be better served by a high octane fuel with a comparatively slower burn rate.
Different high compression applications have different burn speed requirements. It would be a problem if octane and burn rate were relative.
Scott
The bottom line is that what you said is just plain wrong.
Think about race bikes that spin up to 16,000 RPM and have high compression. They need a high octane fuel that has a relatively quick burn rate. A high compression race car engine that spins at 8,000 RPM would be better served by a high octane fuel with a comparatively slower burn rate.
Different high compression applications have different burn speed requirements. It would be a problem if octane and burn rate were relative.
Scott
Last edited by winders; 05-15-2011 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Spelling correction.
05-15-2011, 02:10 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Scott, settle down. I was just interested in what was said by both 76 representitives that seemed like they know more than you do on the topic.
as was said, there is more to flame front propagation than we are talking about here. burn rates are effected by induced turbulence of the intake air.
I just quoted two opinions form some guys with a lot more experience than you or I. so, why dont you just let it go.
Ive read both sides. it seems there are other factors. formulation, octane, air flow characteristics, all effect burn rate.
Again, I dont know, im not an expert. BUT, to go back to topic, there is a lot of talk that mixing av gas and pump gas is a safe practice to raise octane .
No need to get so agressive Scott.
Mark
as was said, there is more to flame front propagation than we are talking about here. burn rates are effected by induced turbulence of the intake air.
I just quoted two opinions form some guys with a lot more experience than you or I. so, why dont you just let it go.
Ive read both sides. it seems there are other factors. formulation, octane, air flow characteristics, all effect burn rate.
Again, I dont know, im not an expert. BUT, to go back to topic, there is a lot of talk that mixing av gas and pump gas is a safe practice to raise octane .
No need to get so agressive Scott.
Mark
Kibort,
The bottom line is that what you said is just plain wrong.
Think about race bikes that spin up to 16,000 RPM and have high compression. They need a high octane fuel that has a relatively quick burn rate. I high compression race car engine that spins at 8,000 RPM would be better served by a high octane fuel with a comparatively slower burn rate.
Different high compression applications have different burn speed requirements. It would be a problem if octane and burn rate were relative.
Scott
The bottom line is that what you said is just plain wrong.
Think about race bikes that spin up to 16,000 RPM and have high compression. They need a high octane fuel that has a relatively quick burn rate. I high compression race car engine that spins at 8,000 RPM would be better served by a high octane fuel with a comparatively slower burn rate.
Different high compression applications have different burn speed requirements. It would be a problem if octane and burn rate were relative.
Scott
05-15-2011, 02:11 PM
#33
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Ooooh.. I want to be a part of this!!!!
E85... An Alcohol, (85% ethanol) As Sunday Driver stated,"... has higher resistance to knock - both due to (its) direct anti-knock and due to the fact that the latent heat of vaporization differs from gasoline." Which also means it COOLS the Air very fast. Its actual Octane rating is right around 100. (Depending on the blend and your area, so be sure) Here in Houston it is almost always the 85% blend due to consistently warm temps. For all you naysayers.. Heres a quote from wikipedia. I know its not absolute fact, but it makes my argument without me having to type it out...
"There have been many rumors going around that E85, which is biodegradable in water, can corrode a vehicle's fuel system, including the fuel tank. Although E85 is corrosive, it is not much more corrosive than regular gasoline. The chemical properties of E85 are not what causes the corrosion; it is the water in E85 that may cause rust and block up the fuel system. In fact, gasoline also contains water, which is why vehicles' fuel systems are built to resist and prevent corrosion.
Vehicles today (mid-1980s and later) are built to withstand and resist corrosion, which means E85 is very unlikely to harm or corrode a vehicle's fuel system in any way."
COST.... hehe.. the beautiful part. You need 30% more fuel right!? So is it expensive? Do the math. E-85 is $3.35/gallon at my corner HEB store. $3.35 x 30% = 1.00 more to make it apples to apples. (Since you have to use around 30% more fuel to reach the same AFR's. ---note.. I only observed 20-25% more needed in my tuning--)
So consider it (E-85) $4.35 per gallon. Vs. $7.35/ gallon at VIR.. or even $10.00/gall at TWS. Difference of - Using my scenario which is TWS @ $9.00/gal. 100oct. $4.65/gallon cheaper I use 20-30 gallons per day at TWS.. 2 day weekend. lets say 50Gallons. In ONE weekend I save (50 x 4.65) $232!!!!!!!!!!! In just 3 events you just paid for the extra fuel system you'll need to use E-85. If you don't have a tunable ECU, then you may have to purchase that.. So it might take another 3 weekends to pay for that, but admit it.. you wanted one anyway. : ) Everything after that is gravy.. A LARGE BOWL of gravy depending on how much you race...
That is all.. oh.. I love E-85.
E85... An Alcohol, (85% ethanol) As Sunday Driver stated,"... has higher resistance to knock - both due to (its) direct anti-knock and due to the fact that the latent heat of vaporization differs from gasoline." Which also means it COOLS the Air very fast. Its actual Octane rating is right around 100. (Depending on the blend and your area, so be sure) Here in Houston it is almost always the 85% blend due to consistently warm temps. For all you naysayers.. Heres a quote from wikipedia. I know its not absolute fact, but it makes my argument without me having to type it out...
"There have been many rumors going around that E85, which is biodegradable in water, can corrode a vehicle's fuel system, including the fuel tank. Although E85 is corrosive, it is not much more corrosive than regular gasoline. The chemical properties of E85 are not what causes the corrosion; it is the water in E85 that may cause rust and block up the fuel system. In fact, gasoline also contains water, which is why vehicles' fuel systems are built to resist and prevent corrosion.
Vehicles today (mid-1980s and later) are built to withstand and resist corrosion, which means E85 is very unlikely to harm or corrode a vehicle's fuel system in any way."
COST.... hehe.. the beautiful part. You need 30% more fuel right!? So is it expensive? Do the math. E-85 is $3.35/gallon at my corner HEB store. $3.35 x 30% = 1.00 more to make it apples to apples. (Since you have to use around 30% more fuel to reach the same AFR's. ---note.. I only observed 20-25% more needed in my tuning--)
So consider it (E-85) $4.35 per gallon. Vs. $7.35/ gallon at VIR.. or even $10.00/gall at TWS. Difference of - Using my scenario which is TWS @ $9.00/gal. 100oct. $4.65/gallon cheaper I use 20-30 gallons per day at TWS.. 2 day weekend. lets say 50Gallons. In ONE weekend I save (50 x 4.65) $232!!!!!!!!!!! In just 3 events you just paid for the extra fuel system you'll need to use E-85. If you don't have a tunable ECU, then you may have to purchase that.. So it might take another 3 weekends to pay for that, but admit it.. you wanted one anyway. : ) Everything after that is gravy.. A LARGE BOWL of gravy depending on how much you race...
That is all.. oh.. I love E-85.
Last edited by 95ONE; 05-15-2011 at 02:42 PM.
05-15-2011, 02:18 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
yes , that makes sense.
However, having pulled many high mileage motors apart, ive seen none of the inperfections you speak of. if they see the track occasionally, the pistons are usually pretty clean. I dont think he was talking about pre-ignition. (man i wish i never even said that. that was not what i meant. knock vs pre ignition are different , i know this) the cooling effects for his goals, on a hot day? really, is that really needed and worth it for the power loss? who knows. I dont and certanly, Dave doesnt either.
thanks
Mark
However, having pulled many high mileage motors apart, ive seen none of the inperfections you speak of. if they see the track occasionally, the pistons are usually pretty clean. I dont think he was talking about pre-ignition. (man i wish i never even said that. that was not what i meant. knock vs pre ignition are different , i know this) the cooling effects for his goals, on a hot day? really, is that really needed and worth it for the power loss? who knows. I dont and certanly, Dave doesnt either.
thanks
Mark
Although I do work in the energy industry, I need to clarify that I am not a liquid fuels engineer. I am simply the type of guy who tries to properly educate myself through reading material written by authoritative sources and talking with individuals who I believe are authoritative sources. My knowledge was obtained by reading a number of publications and talking at length with fuels engineers from Sunoco Racing Fuels, VP Racing Fuels and TORCO Racing Fuels.
Regarding Mark’s observation as stated above, I would like to politely point out that I have educated myself about race fuels MUCH more thoroughly than simply “taking the website verbiage a little out of context.” To me, various race fuel engineers have given me fairly complex explanations of both detonation (or “knock”) and pre-ignition which as SundayDriver correctly points out are two very different things. To keep it simple, additives to increase a fuel’s octane rating generally raise that fuel’s temperature of ignition BUT ONCE THE FUEL IS IGNITED, THE SUSTAINED TEMPERATURE OF COMBUSTION IS QUITE A BIT HIGHER THAN THE TEMPERATURE OF IGNITION OF THE SURROUNDING AIR/FUEL MIXTURE AND THAT FUEL WILL BURN AS FAST OR SLOW AS THE FUEL WAS DESIGNED TO BURN.
Some examples:
1. A fast burning fuel (higher percentage of “light” hydrocarbons which tends to produce a lower specific gravity fuel) with no additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a low temperature and will burn “fast”.
2. A slow burning fuel (higher percentage of “heavy” hydrocarbons which tends to result in a higher specific gravity fuel) with no additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a low temperature and will burn “slow”.
3. A fast burning fuel with the proper additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a higher temperature and will still burn “fast” once it is ignited.
4. A slow burning fuel with the proper additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a higher temperature and will still burn “slow” once it is ignited.
Therefore, a fuel’s temperature of ignition (or generally, it’s resistance to detonation) and its speed of combustion are two very different things and are mutually exclusive. The temperature of ignition of any given fuel is always below that fuel’s temperature of combustion, once it is ignited. Therefore, the temperature of ignition can be viewed as the “hurdle temperature” and once you are over that hurdle, the fuel will combust at the same speed regardless of what its ignition temperature is. Make sense?
Mark, if you want to get into a very specific debate about taking the exact same fuel blend and discussing whether or not the addition of additives to raise its octane rating has some effect on its burn speed, that is a VERY different debate and does not apply in this discussion. This discussion is about the comparison of “non-race fuels” that you buy at a gas station on the street (where you never know the blend unless you talk with the station owner / supplier) to high quality “race fuels” that use very different blends that are known with precision. For anyone to generally state that higher octane race fuels burn slower and/or produce less power than lower octane street fuels is WAY off base.
Regarding pre-ignition, the simple explanation is that this is generally caused in an engine that has some condition that develops internal “hot spots” which “pre-ignite” the fuel before the spark. One example is internal carbon deposits that become glowing red little hot spots inside the combustion chamber or another example is slight imperfections (or sharp edges) on the pistons or valves or cylinder head that are prone to become hot spots. As VR has correctly pointed out, on an engine that has high miles on it, it is much more likely to have one or more of these conditions that can cause pre-ignition and it is a VERY good idea to run a blend of the proper high octane race fuel to give you some extra margin of safety. In addition, VR probably also has properly recognized that race fuels have a known cooling effect in the combustion chamber, whereas, the cooling effect when using street fuel blends is difficult to determine because you never know what blend you are getting.
Jeff
Regarding Mark’s observation as stated above, I would like to politely point out that I have educated myself about race fuels MUCH more thoroughly than simply “taking the website verbiage a little out of context.” To me, various race fuel engineers have given me fairly complex explanations of both detonation (or “knock”) and pre-ignition which as SundayDriver correctly points out are two very different things. To keep it simple, additives to increase a fuel’s octane rating generally raise that fuel’s temperature of ignition BUT ONCE THE FUEL IS IGNITED, THE SUSTAINED TEMPERATURE OF COMBUSTION IS QUITE A BIT HIGHER THAN THE TEMPERATURE OF IGNITION OF THE SURROUNDING AIR/FUEL MIXTURE AND THAT FUEL WILL BURN AS FAST OR SLOW AS THE FUEL WAS DESIGNED TO BURN.
Some examples:
1. A fast burning fuel (higher percentage of “light” hydrocarbons which tends to produce a lower specific gravity fuel) with no additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a low temperature and will burn “fast”.
2. A slow burning fuel (higher percentage of “heavy” hydrocarbons which tends to result in a higher specific gravity fuel) with no additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a low temperature and will burn “slow”.
3. A fast burning fuel with the proper additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a higher temperature and will still burn “fast” once it is ignited.
4. A slow burning fuel with the proper additives to increase its octane rating will ignite at a higher temperature and will still burn “slow” once it is ignited.
Therefore, a fuel’s temperature of ignition (or generally, it’s resistance to detonation) and its speed of combustion are two very different things and are mutually exclusive. The temperature of ignition of any given fuel is always below that fuel’s temperature of combustion, once it is ignited. Therefore, the temperature of ignition can be viewed as the “hurdle temperature” and once you are over that hurdle, the fuel will combust at the same speed regardless of what its ignition temperature is. Make sense?
Mark, if you want to get into a very specific debate about taking the exact same fuel blend and discussing whether or not the addition of additives to raise its octane rating has some effect on its burn speed, that is a VERY different debate and does not apply in this discussion. This discussion is about the comparison of “non-race fuels” that you buy at a gas station on the street (where you never know the blend unless you talk with the station owner / supplier) to high quality “race fuels” that use very different blends that are known with precision. For anyone to generally state that higher octane race fuels burn slower and/or produce less power than lower octane street fuels is WAY off base.
Regarding pre-ignition, the simple explanation is that this is generally caused in an engine that has some condition that develops internal “hot spots” which “pre-ignite” the fuel before the spark. One example is internal carbon deposits that become glowing red little hot spots inside the combustion chamber or another example is slight imperfections (or sharp edges) on the pistons or valves or cylinder head that are prone to become hot spots. As VR has correctly pointed out, on an engine that has high miles on it, it is much more likely to have one or more of these conditions that can cause pre-ignition and it is a VERY good idea to run a blend of the proper high octane race fuel to give you some extra margin of safety. In addition, VR probably also has properly recognized that race fuels have a known cooling effect in the combustion chamber, whereas, the cooling effect when using street fuel blends is difficult to determine because you never know what blend you are getting.
Jeff
05-15-2011, 02:21 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
this is interesting. I read an article regarding this as well.
http://horsepowercalculators.net/e85...e85-calculator
so, you ned 30% more fuel flow, but you can get near 10% more power overall. (better cooling due to the latent heat energy due to vaporization)
why dont we all convert? any draw backs???
I dont quite undersand the 10% gain in power. does it have something to do with the 9:1 AFR vs 12:1 of gasoline? less air needed so the air flow to the engine system is less taxed and with less pressure drop, you can get more power. (or something like that)
very interesting
MK
http://horsepowercalculators.net/e85...e85-calculator
so, you ned 30% more fuel flow, but you can get near 10% more power overall. (better cooling due to the latent heat energy due to vaporization)
why dont we all convert? any draw backs???
I dont quite undersand the 10% gain in power. does it have something to do with the 9:1 AFR vs 12:1 of gasoline? less air needed so the air flow to the engine system is less taxed and with less pressure drop, you can get more power. (or something like that)
very interesting
MK
Ooooh.. I want to be a part of this!!!!
E85... An Alcohol, (85% ethanol) As Mark stated,"... has higher resistance to knock - both due to (its) direct anti-knock and due to the fact that the latent heat of vaporization differs from gasoline." Which also means it COOLS the Air very fast. Its actual Octane rating is right around 100. (Depending on the blend and your area, so be sure) Here in Houston it is almost always the 85% blend due to consistently warm temps. For all you naysayers.. Heres a quote from wikipedia. I know its not absolute fact, but it makes my argument without me having to type it out...
"There have been many rumors going around that E85, which is biodegradable in water, can corrode a vehicle's fuel system, including the fuel tank. Although E85 is corrosive, it is not much more corrosive than regular gasoline. The chemical properties of E85 are not what causes the corrosion; it is the water in E85 that may cause rust and block up the fuel system. In fact, gasoline also contains water, which is why vehicles' fuel systems are built to resist and prevent corrosion.
Vehicles today (mid-1980s and later) are built to withstand and resist corrosion, which means E85 is very unlikely to harm or corrode a vehicle's fuel system in any way."
COST.... hehe.. the beautiful part. You need 30% more fuel right!? So is it expensive? Do the math. E-85 is $3.35/gallon at my corner HEB store. $3.35 x 30% = 1.00 more to make it apples to apples. (Since you have to use around 30% more fuel to reach the same AFR's. ---note.. I only observed 20-25% more needed in my tuning--)
So consider it (E-85) $4.35 per gallon. Vs. $7.35/ gallon at VIR.. or even $10.00/gall at TWS. Difference of - Using my scenario which is TWS @ $10.00/gal. 100oct. $5.65/gallon cheaper I use 20-30 gallons per day at TWS.. 2 day weekend. lets say 50Gallons. In ONE weekend I save (50 x 5.65) $282!!!!!!!!!!! In just 3 events you just paid for the extra fuel system you'll need to use E-85. If you don't have a tunable ECU, then you may have to purchase that.. So it might take another 3 weekends to pay for that, but admit it.. you wanted one anyway. : ) Everything after that is gravy.. A LARGE BOWL of gravy depending on how much you race...
That is all.. oh.. I love E-85.
E85... An Alcohol, (85% ethanol) As Mark stated,"... has higher resistance to knock - both due to (its) direct anti-knock and due to the fact that the latent heat of vaporization differs from gasoline." Which also means it COOLS the Air very fast. Its actual Octane rating is right around 100. (Depending on the blend and your area, so be sure) Here in Houston it is almost always the 85% blend due to consistently warm temps. For all you naysayers.. Heres a quote from wikipedia. I know its not absolute fact, but it makes my argument without me having to type it out...
"There have been many rumors going around that E85, which is biodegradable in water, can corrode a vehicle's fuel system, including the fuel tank. Although E85 is corrosive, it is not much more corrosive than regular gasoline. The chemical properties of E85 are not what causes the corrosion; it is the water in E85 that may cause rust and block up the fuel system. In fact, gasoline also contains water, which is why vehicles' fuel systems are built to resist and prevent corrosion.
Vehicles today (mid-1980s and later) are built to withstand and resist corrosion, which means E85 is very unlikely to harm or corrode a vehicle's fuel system in any way."
COST.... hehe.. the beautiful part. You need 30% more fuel right!? So is it expensive? Do the math. E-85 is $3.35/gallon at my corner HEB store. $3.35 x 30% = 1.00 more to make it apples to apples. (Since you have to use around 30% more fuel to reach the same AFR's. ---note.. I only observed 20-25% more needed in my tuning--)
So consider it (E-85) $4.35 per gallon. Vs. $7.35/ gallon at VIR.. or even $10.00/gall at TWS. Difference of - Using my scenario which is TWS @ $10.00/gal. 100oct. $5.65/gallon cheaper I use 20-30 gallons per day at TWS.. 2 day weekend. lets say 50Gallons. In ONE weekend I save (50 x 5.65) $282!!!!!!!!!!! In just 3 events you just paid for the extra fuel system you'll need to use E-85. If you don't have a tunable ECU, then you may have to purchase that.. So it might take another 3 weekends to pay for that, but admit it.. you wanted one anyway. : ) Everything after that is gravy.. A LARGE BOWL of gravy depending on how much you race...
That is all.. oh.. I love E-85.
05-15-2011, 02:29 PM
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I have considered using E85 in my race car, however, there are two main hurdles I have encountered:
1. I have never seen it at any of the gas stations here in the Carolinas.
2. Its octane rating and cooling effect look good, however, I don't know anything about its burn speed. Anybody have any authoritative data on that?
I am currently running an air cooled normally aspirated engine in my race car but I am hoping to install a water cooled turbo engine next year so that is yet another reason why I am interested in learning more about E85.
Regarding various AV gas blends, unfortunately I have not studied that fuel type so I don't have anything constructive to add on that fuel type at the moment. This discussion has peaked my curiosity though and I will study AV gas a bit more in the near future. Mark, thanks for sharing some of the information you have obtained about AV gas from others.
Somebody also mentioned "oxygenated" fuels and that is yet another variable to consider with whatever fuel you are running.
Jeff
1. I have never seen it at any of the gas stations here in the Carolinas.
2. Its octane rating and cooling effect look good, however, I don't know anything about its burn speed. Anybody have any authoritative data on that?
I am currently running an air cooled normally aspirated engine in my race car but I am hoping to install a water cooled turbo engine next year so that is yet another reason why I am interested in learning more about E85.
Regarding various AV gas blends, unfortunately I have not studied that fuel type so I don't have anything constructive to add on that fuel type at the moment. This discussion has peaked my curiosity though and I will study AV gas a bit more in the near future. Mark, thanks for sharing some of the information you have obtained about AV gas from others.
Somebody also mentioned "oxygenated" fuels and that is yet another variable to consider with whatever fuel you are running.
Jeff
05-15-2011, 03:15 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Is the purple ex 911 design car, yours in the avitar? I think I saw this and its twin at laguna a few years ago in a POC race. very cool.
after reading all this, certainly there is a lot of FUD concerning using avgas vs gasoline. I dont think there is a power issue, as i remember seeing some tests on the dyno where the avgas performed as well if not better.
again, i have no practical experience with the different fuels. I remember up to about 10years ago, i was running premium in the BMW e46. Now, only regular in all cars, except the race car where it gets 91.
after reading all this, certainly there is a lot of FUD concerning using avgas vs gasoline. I dont think there is a power issue, as i remember seeing some tests on the dyno where the avgas performed as well if not better.
again, i have no practical experience with the different fuels. I remember up to about 10years ago, i was running premium in the BMW e46. Now, only regular in all cars, except the race car where it gets 91.
I have considered using E85 in my race car, however, there are two main hurdles I have encountered:
1. I have never seen it at any of the gas stations here in the Carolinas.
2. Its octane rating and cooling effect look good, however, I don't know anything about its burn speed. Anybody have any authoritative data on that?
I am currently running an air cooled normally aspirated engine in my race car but I am hoping to install a water cooled turbo engine next year so that is yet another reason why I am interested in learning more about E85.
Regarding various AV gas blends, unfortunately I have not studied that fuel type so I don't have anything constructive to add on that fuel type at the moment. This discussion has peaked my curiosity though and I will study AV gas a bit more in the near future. Mark, thanks for sharing some of the information you have obtained about AV gas from others.
Somebody also mentioned "oxygenated" fuels and that is yet another variable to consider with whatever fuel you are running.
Jeff
1. I have never seen it at any of the gas stations here in the Carolinas.
2. Its octane rating and cooling effect look good, however, I don't know anything about its burn speed. Anybody have any authoritative data on that?
I am currently running an air cooled normally aspirated engine in my race car but I am hoping to install a water cooled turbo engine next year so that is yet another reason why I am interested in learning more about E85.
Regarding various AV gas blends, unfortunately I have not studied that fuel type so I don't have anything constructive to add on that fuel type at the moment. This discussion has peaked my curiosity though and I will study AV gas a bit more in the near future. Mark, thanks for sharing some of the information you have obtained about AV gas from others.
Somebody also mentioned "oxygenated" fuels and that is yet another variable to consider with whatever fuel you are running.
Jeff
05-15-2011, 03:27 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
In addition, since higher octanes hamper detonation as Scott correctly says, they also can be used to cool the cylinder head(s) in very high operating temperatures such as high RPM tracks in summer. This can be especially useful for high mileage motors that don't even require above 93 octane. For example, when I track in hot weather here in Texas, I will mix some 98 or 100 octane unleaded with 93 in my 101,000 mile M3 (even though the car gets no adaptation/ignition advance benefits from the octane) just to help protect the engine. $9/gallon every once in a while is a lot less expensive than a top end rebuild!
I didnt say it was close, i said it was "closer".
Hey big mouth, what did you mean then?
anyway, VR can pump in an extra $20 a tank full so that he feels better about his M3 motor on DE days.
No need to be insulting, and imature about it. stop getting so damn arrogant! you comment like you have small man's complex.
Hey big mouth, what did you mean then?
anyway, VR can pump in an extra $20 a tank full so that he feels better about his M3 motor on DE days.
No need to be insulting, and imature about it. stop getting so damn arrogant! you comment like you have small man's complex.
As I said, way to totally miss the point. But thanks for the extra dose of irony & projection at the very end of the quote above.
You're going back on Ignore, Mark. You offer nothing of value, and what you do offer is almost always 100% wrong. And then, in typical small man complex fashion, when called on your BS, you get belligerently defensive about it. TTFN.
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 05-15-2011 at 03:58 PM. Reason: typo
05-15-2011, 03:38 PM
#40
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http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.html
I am looking into getting 30-50 gallon tank rated for gas and using it rather then using 5 gallon gas containers.
05-15-2011, 08:17 PM
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Jeff
05-15-2011, 08:27 PM
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Look at this site to find E85 stations. Must just have a single pump so they are hard to see.
http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.html
I am looking into getting 30-50 gallon tank rated for gas and using it rather then using 5 gallon gas containers.
http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.html
I am looking into getting 30-50 gallon tank rated for gas and using it rather then using 5 gallon gas containers.
When you reference getting the large fuel tank, is this because there aren't many stations near you carrying E85? In other words, this would lessen the amount of times you need to go out of your way to buy the fuel? Or is it for some other reason?
Jeff
05-15-2011, 08:54 PM
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Jeff, I have two stations about 30 minutes from me. I wish one was a little closer. The tank would be for track events were E85 might be harder to get. This is what I found that is gas certified and can transfer fuel while in the truck.
http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=1751
http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=1751
Last edited by Bri Bro; 05-17-2011 at 08:27 PM.
05-15-2011, 09:06 PM
#44
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My meaning seems crystal clear to everyone but you, Mark. However, since you seem "challenged", I have bolded the salient points.
As I said, way to totally miss the point. But thanks for the extra dose of irony & projection at the very end of the quote above.
You're going back on Ignore, Mark. You offer nothing of value, and what you do offer is almost always 100% wrong. And then, in typical small man complex fashion, when called on your BS, you get belligerently defensive about it. TTFN.
As I said, way to totally miss the point. But thanks for the extra dose of irony & projection at the very end of the quote above.
You're going back on Ignore, Mark. You offer nothing of value, and what you do offer is almost always 100% wrong. And then, in typical small man complex fashion, when called on your BS, you get belligerently defensive about it. TTFN.
thats ok Dave, you are not alone. as far as the differentiators, I dont think you or I are in a position to really do more than read and try and understand what the experts have said. two experts had grossly different opinions. I leaned on the side Ive heard more often from credible sources, but the information on the other side is compelling as well.thats why i posted both source to both points, ironically coming from two guys, who worked for the same company, and had different takes on the difference of race gas and av gas.
Now , as far as projection of others being 100% wrong. thats classc!
Yes, the purple car is mine and thanks for the compliment. I bought it from Bruce Phillips (he is based in Albuquerque, NM) a few years ago and like you noticed, he built two cars that look very similar. You probably saw both of them when Bruce ran them at Laguna Seca. The one I bought (car #20) has a 3.4 liter normally aspirated engine and the other one (car #22) was a center seat configuration and had a twin turbo 962 engine in it. I tried to buy the twin turbo car but it was sold to a buyer in South Africa two weeks before I finally made up my mind to buy it. Therefore, I ended up buying the normally aspirated car when Bruce decided to sell it later. I have really enjoyed the car and am currently in the process of finishing some extensive re-work on the cage and suspension setup. Hope to have it back on the track by mid to late Summer of this year.
Jeff
Jeff
Mark
05-15-2011, 10:01 PM
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Jeff, I have two stations about 30 minutes from me. I wish one was a little closer. The tank would be for track events were E85 might be harder to get. This is what I found that is gas certified and can be transfer fuel while in the truck. http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=1751
Jeff