Is going from CR to DE really that complicated?.......
05-06-2011 | 08:25 AM
#16
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From: Philly Burbs
05-06-2011 | 08:28 AM
#17
Drifting
Joined: May 2002
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From: Germantown, Maryland
Paolo,
The only thing I see you did wrong was not squeezing him off the racing surface at track out. ;-)
Seriously, you were in the right to take the pass once offered. Passee should have backed off and CI should know better.
The only thing I see you did wrong was not squeezing him off the racing surface at track out. ;-)
Seriously, you were in the right to take the pass once offered. Passee should have backed off and CI should know better.
05-06-2011 | 08:35 AM
#18
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From: Philly Burbs
Paolo, you need to realize CR and DE are two different animals. The hierarchy on the DE club level is this: Long time Career DE instructors, DE Instructors, Out of region DE instructors, Black group drivers and so on. Club racing: Fastest driver, next Fastest driver, next fastest driver, next fastest driver........................
If your going to DE events you need to chill and just understand the event is not about you or being faster than a bunch of DE instructors. Racers get labelled at DE events all the time as too aggressive whether true or not. Keep in mind there are egos out there and some avoid racing to preserve them.
If your going to DE events you need to chill and just understand the event is not about you or being faster than a bunch of DE instructors. Racers get labelled at DE events all the time as too aggressive whether true or not. Keep in mind there are egos out there and some avoid racing to preserve them.
05-06-2011 | 08:47 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2007
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I experience it a lot when I take my race car to a DE. My track speeds to horspower ratio is quite low so when a "DE" car slows me up and takes away my momentum and then gives me the point by, I just don't have the horsepower to rocket by and its funny the number of people that want to drag race down the straight, usually a turbo guy or a GT3. They usually lift at the corner entry when side by side but I later get a comment asking why I did not pass more easily... 
I tell them I was flat out but they don't believe me. I guess because my closing speeds are so great from momentum they think I have 900 horsepower :< Lucky I don't DE much any more except for the occasional Test and tune.
I tell them I was flat out but they don't believe me. I guess because my closing speeds are so great from momentum they think I have 900 horsepower :< Lucky I don't DE much any more except for the occasional Test and tune.At a recent DE event I participated at, I have had a very interesting experience……
I had signed up for a DE with my garage queen (CaymanS) just to get the feel of the track again after a long winter and while waiting for my racecar to be ready……..
It just happened that the Black and Red groups were combined……..not a problem there….
In the second driving session, I get stuck behind someone for at least a lap……fine, maybe he didn’t see me......
Finally I get a pass signal, I take it on the outside only to wind up side by side into the turn, the apex and track out…….
OK, no big deal……onto the next car……..
Well, in the paddock the red driver approaches me and tells me that first I was too close to his bumper (too aggressive) and then I should have not taken that pass, (the one he pointed me by)…….
He continued to say that he assumed that since I didn’t pass him at "Cup Car speeds" I had aborted the pass…… and thus it was his corner……
I might me wrong, but you drag me around for a lap and I might be "close" to your bumper just in case you have visibility issues…….
Plus, if you give me a pass you probably should lift slightly to make sure that both of us get it done safely……… without racing me to the corner.....
What do I have wrong so far?.......
Anyway, my answers didn’t satisfy him so here comes the CI, telling me that it wasn’t a very smart move on my part to take the turn side by side……
Is it the norm for a red run group driver to get bent out of shape for having to take a turn side by side after holding somebody around for a lap, eventually pointing him by and then proceed to drag race him to the corner?
I had signed up for a DE with my garage queen (CaymanS) just to get the feel of the track again after a long winter and while waiting for my racecar to be ready……..
It just happened that the Black and Red groups were combined……..not a problem there….
In the second driving session, I get stuck behind someone for at least a lap……fine, maybe he didn’t see me......
Finally I get a pass signal, I take it on the outside only to wind up side by side into the turn, the apex and track out…….
OK, no big deal……onto the next car……..
Well, in the paddock the red driver approaches me and tells me that first I was too close to his bumper (too aggressive) and then I should have not taken that pass, (the one he pointed me by)…….
He continued to say that he assumed that since I didn’t pass him at "Cup Car speeds" I had aborted the pass…… and thus it was his corner……
I might me wrong, but you drag me around for a lap and I might be "close" to your bumper just in case you have visibility issues…….
Plus, if you give me a pass you probably should lift slightly to make sure that both of us get it done safely……… without racing me to the corner.....
What do I have wrong so far?.......
Anyway, my answers didn’t satisfy him so here comes the CI, telling me that it wasn’t a very smart move on my part to take the turn side by side……
Is it the norm for a red run group driver to get bent out of shape for having to take a turn side by side after holding somebody around for a lap, eventually pointing him by and then proceed to drag race him to the corner?
05-06-2011 | 08:51 AM
#20
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
Which reminds me...Paolo should have told the a-whole to go self mate.
05-06-2011 | 09:42 AM
#22
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Paolo,
When I first did some DE's after a season or two of club racing, I had similar experiences. My suggestion is to try to change how you approach passing, and you'll find that this will have ENORMOUS benefits in your racing results.
It can easily happen in a DE that you will be given a pass signal, and the guy figures that you have a faster car and doesn't lift . As annoying as that it is in a DE, it is almost a certainty in a race. No matter whether or not you have a slower car or faster car, in a race, nobody is going to lift for you.
So, use the opportunity to time your momentum passes better. I found that almost all of the times that I got frustrated by someone not lifting for me at a DE, it was really due to the fact that I caught up to them in the previous corner, and I had to lift in order to not crash into them. With that being the case, I then lost all my momentum and it made it very difficult to pass them. When I timed my passes well (i.e., carried mucho momentum out of the corner), I was able to pass them with ease and I found my lap times barely budged even when I was slicing through lots of traffic. (BTW, carrying more momentum out of the corner will make up for VERY large differences in HP)
When I then translated that to racing, it made it much easier to start near the front of the race grid even though I was dicing it up with cars several classes higher than me.
When I first did some DE's after a season or two of club racing, I had similar experiences. My suggestion is to try to change how you approach passing, and you'll find that this will have ENORMOUS benefits in your racing results.
It can easily happen in a DE that you will be given a pass signal, and the guy figures that you have a faster car and doesn't lift . As annoying as that it is in a DE, it is almost a certainty in a race. No matter whether or not you have a slower car or faster car, in a race, nobody is going to lift for you.
So, use the opportunity to time your momentum passes better. I found that almost all of the times that I got frustrated by someone not lifting for me at a DE, it was really due to the fact that I caught up to them in the previous corner, and I had to lift in order to not crash into them. With that being the case, I then lost all my momentum and it made it very difficult to pass them. When I timed my passes well (i.e., carried mucho momentum out of the corner), I was able to pass them with ease and I found my lap times barely budged even when I was slicing through lots of traffic. (BTW, carrying more momentum out of the corner will make up for VERY large differences in HP)
When I then translated that to racing, it made it much easier to start near the front of the race grid even though I was dicing it up with cars several classes higher than me.
05-06-2011 | 09:45 AM
#23
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Suburban DC
When in DE you gotta play DE rules. He gave the point but didn't lift. Bad on him. But if the DE rules say you don't pass in turns, then bad on you for not backing out. That's the compromise of DEs. The real issue is whether you were wearing your nomex bunny suit.
05-06-2011 | 09:50 AM
#24
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So, use the opportunity to time your momentum passes better. I found that almost all of the times that I got frustrated by someone not lifting for me at a DE, it was really due to the fact that I caught up to them in the previous corner, and I had to lift in order to not crash into them. With that being the case, I then lost all my momentum and it made it very difficult to pass them. When I timed my passes well (i.e., carried mucho momentum out of the corner), I was able to pass them with ease and I found my lap times barely budged even when I was slicing through lots of traffic. (BTW, carrying more momentum out of the corner will make up for VERY large differences in HP)
And I agree with Lemming (Tim). The guy was a dick. You should have asked him who he paid to let him drive in Red.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
05-06-2011 | 10:02 AM
#25
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From: SC
Depends on what was said in the drivers meeting.
If they said that you need to give up on the pass if it isn't going to happen and you'll be side by side you were in the wrong.
If they said it's two part pass, one the driver in front needs to make it happen too, he's also in the wrong.
Remember it's a DE, if you're held up for a lap and it won't end soon, take a pit drive through, talk to the CI afterwards about the guy who can't use his mirrors and drag races down the straights.
If they said that you need to give up on the pass if it isn't going to happen and you'll be side by side you were in the wrong.
If they said it's two part pass, one the driver in front needs to make it happen too, he's also in the wrong.
Remember it's a DE, if you're held up for a lap and it won't end soon, take a pit drive through, talk to the CI afterwards about the guy who can't use his mirrors and drag races down the straights.
Paolo, you need to realize CR and DE are two different animals. The hierarchy on the DE club level is this: Long time Career DE instructors, DE Instructors, Out of region DE instructors, Black group drivers and so on. Club racing: Fastest driver, next Fastest driver, next fastest driver, next fastest driver........................
If your going to DE events you need to chill and just understand the event is not about you or being faster than a bunch of DE instructors. Racers get labelled at DE events all the time as too aggressive whether true or not. Keep in mind there are egos out there and some avoid racing to preserve them.
If your going to DE events you need to chill and just understand the event is not about you or being faster than a bunch of DE instructors. Racers get labelled at DE events all the time as too aggressive whether true or not. Keep in mind there are egos out there and some avoid racing to preserve them.
Pass anywhere with a signal except the apex.....technically we were side by side at the apex (separated by 2 car widths, me on the outside)
05-06-2011 | 10:22 AM
#26
NASA Racer
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I think every club should require national certification as a way to reassess current instructors. Or, just make everyone pass a re certification program every two years . it would be a good opportunity to take away instructor privileges from the guys who suck or are just phoning it in to get a reduced fee for DE's. It's not just that there are guys who can't drive in Red, they're also instructing the newbies!
05-06-2011 | 11:19 AM
#27
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From: 01776
As others have said, DE and CR are simply not the same other than cars go fast.
I'll take devil's advocate here. The DE rules are in place to enforce the inherently lower risk environment as compared to CR. Most people who DE are not club racers. The majority of people at DE use cars which are often their daily drivers even though some of these cars are trailered to the event. There are also some VERY expensive cars out there. DE allows people to learn to drive their cars at speed in a relatively controlled environment. Thus car to car incidents are extremely rare.
All that being said, there are people including instructors who aren't very good with their mirrors. There are also sometimes ego issues.
You don't win a DE and there is no prize at the end of the day aside from good memories.
I think there is less of a problem in Black/Red as there is more experience. My car with 201 HP is vastly outgunned by most of my run group. Maybe it's because they know me, maybe not, but they always lift for me to pass. I do the same unless there's a GT3 or turbo passing me in which case it's not necessary.
I'm sorry if this is turning into yet another thread of DE vs CR. Believe me I live for track time, but I get an equal amount of enjoyment just being at the track, seeing my friends, seeing different cars, and helping out as much as I can.
I hope you come to more events Paolo. It was great seeing you!
On a different note, which finger did the Red driver use when he gave you the point by?
I'll take devil's advocate here. The DE rules are in place to enforce the inherently lower risk environment as compared to CR. Most people who DE are not club racers. The majority of people at DE use cars which are often their daily drivers even though some of these cars are trailered to the event. There are also some VERY expensive cars out there. DE allows people to learn to drive their cars at speed in a relatively controlled environment. Thus car to car incidents are extremely rare.
All that being said, there are people including instructors who aren't very good with their mirrors. There are also sometimes ego issues.
You don't win a DE and there is no prize at the end of the day aside from good memories.
I think there is less of a problem in Black/Red as there is more experience. My car with 201 HP is vastly outgunned by most of my run group. Maybe it's because they know me, maybe not, but they always lift for me to pass. I do the same unless there's a GT3 or turbo passing me in which case it's not necessary.
I'm sorry if this is turning into yet another thread of DE vs CR. Believe me I live for track time, but I get an equal amount of enjoyment just being at the track, seeing my friends, seeing different cars, and helping out as much as I can.
I hope you come to more events Paolo. It was great seeing you!
On a different note, which finger did the Red driver use when he gave you the point by?
05-06-2011 | 11:25 AM
#28
Drifting
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From: Suburban DC
I think every club should require national certification as a way to reassess current instructors. Or, just make everyone pass a re certification program every two years . it would be a good opportunity to take away instructor privileges from the guys who suck or are just phoning it in to get a reduced fee for DE's. It's not just that there are guys who can't drive in Red, they're also instructing the newbies!
05-06-2011 | 11:33 AM
#29
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From: In the pasture.
I'm with Brian P on this one. Good post.
Also,
Add a decal to the front of your car that reads: "Navy Seal Team Six". That otta get it done.
But....In each regions supplements there is a section regarding racers at DEs. Most say something like; if there is, a dick/know it all, instructor in front of you who will not give a point by or insists on not lifting to allow the pass (they are the best drivers in PCA you know) the racer will be required to punt him at the apex. This will serve a dual purpose; 1) you will no longer be held up by an inconsiderate megalomaniac and 2) you will teach him a valuable lesson about on track courtesy.
By following the supplements, to the letter, you are guaranteed to never have any more issues at that regions DEs. Of course, you will never be allowed to participate again.
Also,
Add a decal to the front of your car that reads: "Navy Seal Team Six". That otta get it done.
But....In each regions supplements there is a section regarding racers at DEs. Most say something like; if there is, a dick/know it all, instructor in front of you who will not give a point by or insists on not lifting to allow the pass (they are the best drivers in PCA you know) the racer will be required to punt him at the apex. This will serve a dual purpose; 1) you will no longer be held up by an inconsiderate megalomaniac and 2) you will teach him a valuable lesson about on track courtesy.
By following the supplements, to the letter, you are guaranteed to never have any more issues at that regions DEs. Of course, you will never be allowed to participate again.
05-06-2011 | 11:37 AM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Oregon
Situations like this we're the reason why I stopped doing DE's and started doing test days. It's useless to pay $600-800 a day to go out and get stuck behind slow people who think point by's make them less of a driver. For that kind of stress I can just go sit on the freeway.
Even if you time your passes to really have momentum on them, I usually found that I would be catching up fast at or near the "passing zone" and then eventually have to hit the brakes for 1 or 2 seconds before they finally would point me by. By the time all of this takes place, we're now closing in on the end of the passing zone and I get a stern talking to for not getting my passes done early enough. By the time you get instructors involved and point fingers for a while, you're on your last session. lol
Even if you time your passes to really have momentum on them, I usually found that I would be catching up fast at or near the "passing zone" and then eventually have to hit the brakes for 1 or 2 seconds before they finally would point me by. By the time all of this takes place, we're now closing in on the end of the passing zone and I get a stern talking to for not getting my passes done early enough. By the time you get instructors involved and point fingers for a while, you're on your last session. lol