924RACR

Actually, in more detail... the point is that the interventions (brake applications) will be boosted, and effectively become more sensitive besides, when you countersteer vs. when you only decrease steering. Furthermore, how quickly they become very very strong will be different from car to car, and from tune to tune. If you get at all crossed-up in a minivan or SUV, you can expect it to come down pretty hard with the hammer, pretty quickly - say, with as little as 5deg countersteer.

When I'm in a sports car, especially in a track mode, I expect it to be much more tolerant of more countersteer... and this is often what you will in particular see when you switch modes, like going to Comp Mode in a Corvette for example.

So yes, countersteering does matter, as does how much. Go out and try it sometime - it's lots of fun! See how hard it hits you in a slide from a given speed if you don't countersteer, vs. a little countersteer, vs. a lot.

JustinL

In my e46 M3 the DSC costs me more than 3 seconds over a 1:43.000 lap. I find it highly intrusive and the only solution it has is: slow down and understeer. I can't imagine trying to learn how to drive with the DSC on because it would teach that any oversteer slows you down.

Ritter v4.0

To PSM this is a car out of control and about to crash- rather than taking an aggressive line over gators (T3 @ RA).
When my dash was gutted the PSM was "lost" behind it somewhere. The car would cutout every time it lifted a wheel (or 2, or 4). At a track like RA or Barber that means at least 3 times a lap where the car has to then "gather itself"- killing momentum. With the PM switch found and back in the dash, its the first thing that gets turned off upon start up (would like to find a permanent OFF). I forget what your original question was but just leave it off when on track.

BostonDMD

Thanks for your response, my original questions were:

"What does PSM really do for driver’s development (learning) past the beginners level?

Are car controls skills obsolete anymore with the advent of PSM or other traction control devices?"

I did shut it off when I was by myself, and then turned it back on when the instructors jumped in.........DE rules......

Ritter v4.0

1. Nothing that I can see.
2. No. Assuming its turned off for the track- same skills as before.
The brain is so much more nuanced than current (or future likely) iterations of street designed PSM systems.

I thought that I might use it when on track in the rain, but it was just so unpredictable. The car was driving me, not the other way 'round. You can't go full lock when you want or need to.

In short, go analog for track and digital for street.

Joe Weinstein

I autocross a more-powerful-than stock 996tt. This is probably the worst light PSM can be in.
PSM slows the car by about 1-2 seconds a 40-second lap in the dry, and in hot slaloms, I have
had it come in like Chinese government sensors, turning the power off for a full second.

If you want to learn actual car control, getting reliable, timely and honest car reactions to
which you can develop and polish your instinctive reactions, you must turn PSM off.

If the environment is such that those car reactions are going to be too new/dangerous/expensive
to risk experiencing and possibly mishandling them, then leave it on.

jakermc

The PSM unit is a cylinder looking object in the front trunk. The wiring harness that leads to it from the braking system can be unplugged, leaving you with a PSM fault but everything else works. Just leave it unpluged at the PSM end of things and it stays permanently off. At least thats how it works on my '03, give it a try in your '99.

I leave mine that way all the time, but when it rained earlier this year I plugged it back in and took a 'stay on the track approach' to the race. Qualied 3rd and finished 2nd when the guy I was chasing just ahead of me spun. Was never going to catch the winner, so the strategy worked well the one time I tried it. The PSM saved my butt big time at least once, when I missed my braking point.

In hindsight, or at least now with experience doing this, I might have left it on but toggled the switch off on corner exit and then back on before braking. The big downside in the rain was it did not allow for any wheel spin so corner exit was horrible. Would be cool to mount the switch closer to the steering wheel to do this. Or alternatively I could learn how to drive in the rain, but that's for another thread.

BostonDMD

I suggest you read the book about a racer, his dog Enzo, and racing in the rain.......

Joking aside, name someone in this forum that doesn't need improvement in driving/racing in the rain......

Veloce Raptor

Now, THAT is very interesting... You are required to run with PSM on in DE's up there?

BostonDMD

When an instructor is in the car the rule is that the PSM is on......(I had 3 different instructors ride with me)
Isn't that the case in any region?

Veloce Raptor

Uh..........beats me. Never heard that before.

Gary R.

I believe they call that "The BostonDMD Rule"...

sbelles

Only the female ones and only sometimes. Oh, wait..

BostonDMD

Well, I thought it was a rule, but regardless..........

when was the last time that you "the instructor" adviced "the student" to shut the PSM off?

Jay Gratton

I rode with you as Matt said! You can wheel man, no doubt! The PSM was killing you in turn 2B and in turn 3 for sure, I could see you trying to get the car to rotate in 2B and then the car would just die, going up the hill in 3 I could feel the back tire spinning and that was kicking on the PSM as well.
Good driving, next time bring the 911! I want to ride in that with you.