mark kibort

mike,
watched the video. Masuro is leaving time on the table braking in 9. his line is not as fast as it could be. Also , he is butchering the gear box on lap 3. 4 grinds and misshifts. I would bet that his brake tap at 9 is more out of habit than for effect. I dont think he did it on the opening lap. find me a lap where he doesnt, and I bet that is his fastest lap. a few times he did it to avoild closure distance from the car in front.

EDIT: now, a data point based on the review of the video.
watch 11min, 14min, 17min, and 25min in. those laps were no brakes out of 9. sometimes an inside car forced him to take a higher line which then he didnt need brakes. sometimes, he just ended up higher, was on the gas and didnt apply brakes. if you notice, when he did use the brakes in 9, he straightened the wheel and tapped. all taking time( not good) great example of why TO not use the brakes there and use a higher line. its faster.

MUSSBERGER

Iracing may help. I still can hardly get around it even in the Mazda cup.

Crazy Canuck

In the Mazda Cup I get around LS ok in the high 1:46s. I thought I was doing alright until a guy did a lap in the high 1:40s.

Mahler9th

Mark,

You and I have different opinions. I have not driven your car and you have not driven mine or Masuo's. Masuo is a far better driver than you give him credit for and he brakes because he clearly needs to brake on many laps... and on those where he does not there is clearly a traffic situation. As for the correct line entering and through 9, this is one of those places where trade-offs matter. Your car is very different from mine... mine is lighter and faster with more grip. And very tail heavy. So my trade-offs are different from yours and more similar to Masuo's.

In my first post in this thread, I admonished the original poster regarding your advice that braking isn't necessary before the 9 turn in. I am sure that he will work with his instructor(s) and figure out what is best for him.

Come on out and race with us sometime. I think that you will find some great competition and fun in the PRC. I think your car might be in GT2 class. I think the class will be competitive this year with pole winners at 1:37 - 1:39 at Sears Point and 1:49 - 1:50 at Thunderhill. Come on out and join the fun.

mark kibort

yes, thats racing.

I see and feel something a little different, but keep in mind, i have a few more laps around laguna than both you and Masuro. Masuro wheels a fast car around laguna FAST. no doubt, but as you can see he makes errors that in close wheel to wheel would be fatal to success. He is not immune to advice to run faster still. Neither am I nor you !

Here is the difference, I would listen to both you and masuro, if you had advice for me. You on the other hand, probably wouldnt. Im an athlete, pure and simple. you only get better by listening and testing the limits, as well as experiementing. I can almost guarantee, masuro can improve his lap times by listening to me, and possibly a few others here, as could I and as could you .

Masuro is running a near 1:30 in his lightweight 911, the driver on this thread will be running in the 150s. I was offering some help with his first time to laguna as I have helped with many others. Now, its my opionion, yes. I think its a good one and one that can help with some of the errors in speed and comfort at Laguna. Ive driven a chevey tahoe the same way out of the corkscrew. you dont need brakes out of it. watch the video of masuro. I pointed out 4 laps where he didnt either and I would be willing to bet a couple of those were faster through that section.

Hey, pull out the telemetry systems and compare.

Now, racing with PCA and my car GT2? really that seems equal? 3000lbs vs 2200lbs . ill come out to have some fun, but the classing of the cars that are not 911s, using the same templates, is a little silly and unfair. Why do you think SpeedGT is so competitive?? they understand weight , hp to weight as major factors.
PCA uses HP weights from the owner's manuals to class their cars.

Astroman

The Masuro video was cool. Thanks for posting it. But holy crap that red car was blocking badly in the beginning. I would have been furious... Props to Masuro for keeping his cool (repeatedly).

mark kibort

Thats pretty normal for racing at laguna. The Red car, wasnt blocking, he was just driving a little narrow. His right and that is racing. (blocking is the "two moves" thing) Sure, Masuro looked to be about 1-2 seconds faster a lap, but this is where your racecraft comes into play. setting someone up for the pass is all the fun. if the guy pulled over and just let him by, that would be disappointing, wouldnt it?? Both those cars are decptively fast!

Veloce Raptor

I share your concern. I would hate for someone to take this advice as gospel and wad up their car, or worse: get badly hurt. Agree on following instructors' recommendations rather than internet chatter.

mark kibort

My advice was 3 generally safe points
turn in early for 3, 6 and dont tap for 9.
If you know laguna, you know this is sound advice.

mk

Veloce Raptor

Mark, with all due respect, I know Laguna, and my (and Mahler's) point stands. Folks can make up their own minds...with the assistance of their instructor. My point here is purely safety oriented.

mark kibort

Respect accepted. What I have advised is nothing more than something like advising you to keep your eyes on the road. In fact, the no brakes advice out of 9 is safer than trying to use them there.
Nothing wrong with listening to an instructor there as well, but ive seen folks with instructors pointed the wrong direction in that area of the track as well.
Anyway, this is a discussion board. we are discussing the track and there was a request for tips on laguna for which I think I am more than qualified to reply.
I'm all about safety as well. The majority of the problems I see at laguna can be mitigated by taking the very simple tips Ive provided. Take it or leave it, the OP's choice. Its how I learned the track. Talking to folks and watching those that knew the track better than I did and trying new things. Again, its not like im telling the guy to not brake at turn 2 or turn 1 at Thunderhill.

mglobe

I guess I'll be the first one to break out the

Mahler9th

Sound advice Mark?

I do not agree. Sorry. I will never agree. You and I seem to have differing technical educations.

By the way, it is Masuo, not Masuro.

As for the red car in the video, that is Gary Walton. He has been racing since 1965 and has a lot of expertise, experience and enthusiasm. He is so experienced that he can be very difficult to pass. We are fortunate to have Gary still active in our area. He and his son Rich work with Jerry Woods at Jerry Woods Enterprises.

As for PCA Club racing rules, I am not sure what Mark means by owner's manuals. The GT class weights have nothing to do with stock car weights. They are based on horsepower versus weight.

I guess Mark feels that the PCA GT classes are silly and unfair. He is of course entitled to his opinion. There are plenty of folks that have differing opinions, enjoying the PCA Club Racing program and/or racing with the PRC which now uses the identical class system.

As with any amateur racing rules, there are various levels of preparation in each class. In Masuo's video, he was in the 2004 PCA GT3 class, and Gary Boss was in the GT4 class.

As for braking out of turn 9, I am not sure I understand. To make it clear, I have been referring to braking in the entry area for turn 9.

I think the original poster gets the idea... I would encourage him to chime back in after his experience. I'd especially like to hear about (i) whether he feels that turn 3 either has a naturally occurring early apex, or (ii) whether his instructors suggest taking an early apex in turn 3.

mark kibort

Mike, you would agree if you were in the right seat of my car, trust me. there is no need to brake going into turn 9, if you drive the best line.

to your point about Gary, yes, he is a good driver as well and as I mentioned, his lines were nothing more than competitive, with no indication of "blocking" Gary and Masuo were running 137s in those first few laps and got faster toward the end. but that was a year before the track change, so call them 1 second faster than todays times.

sure, "Masuo". sorry to him about that.

GT classes I was refering to was POC. But, for PCA, my complaint it still holds true. why do you think that they dont use that formula in any other type of racing? Because hp to weight is only one factor. cornering, and braking are others, ( lighter cars overall can do this much easier, simple formulas) so if you class a car for racing and not take into account, its not fair for heavier cars of the same manufacturer race event. Does that make sense?
The reason it works for POC and PRC/PCA, is that the 99% majority are cars of near the same weight. the ony exception will come with the 928, so i understand, but elect to race for fun, or with other venues that class cars a little more fairly.
Why do you think GT4s and GT3s as well as GT2s all run near the same time on a given weekend with equal drivers and preped cars in the club races there?

You and I were both racing that weekend of the video in 2004. that was a lot of fun to be out there with all the porsche brothers!

mark kibort

you dont agree, because CLEARLY you dont understand the rules. they are not based on HP to weight, but if they were, that would be 100x more fair than the rule are today. you see mike, they make assumptions of the HP/liter for different engines based on prep levels and dont take into consideration absolute weights, which are essential to any elementary classing of a race car against is competitors.

The fastest 928s to ever hit the track and win battles against the top 911 compeitors, is near 75hp/liter, but the car is classed at 100hp per liter. the greatest HP 928 engine that has eve raced in stock displ is 75hp/liter

So, imeadiately, it is at a 25% disadvantage to other 911 engines that develop 100hp per liter with out as much as a chip change. (we have all seen the 360rwhp Grand Am GS car running a near stock 3.6 liter with only a chip change) An extremely healthy 928 S4 with the best numbers with only a chip or tuning change even better cams, is 64h/liter.

So, it works for a cup car with 330rwhp out of a single throttle body 3.6L and 2600lbs. a similar preped 928 would be no where near the performance. Clearly, you see they are trying to use HP to weight, so why not just use it. this formula with HP/L and hp to weight amounts to a set of results to fit the classes, rather than classes that will fit the results. Has anyone seen a 500rwhp 928 out of 5liter? ever?? absolutely not! but there a lot of cup cars with 330rwhp and single throttle bodies. The highest hp 928 to ever hit and survive a racing season is the anderson and Fan 928s and they produce 500rwhp, and that works out to 75HP/liter.

anyway, they try to be simple and avoid conflict, but are constantly avoiding the obvious. Just do HP to weight and do some kind of equalization for cars over or under 2700lbs and I think you could hit 90% of the target for fairness. POC uses stock weights as base lines, PCA is following in the footsteps of complexity for no reason. you want to keep it simple, use the factors that are known to have the highest weighted average and use them!

PCA RULES

performance index = (weight/ (displa x HP/liter index) * 100
There are 16 engine types. Displacement in the formula is the exact displacement of the engine to the nearest thousandth of a liter. The weight in the formula includes car, driver and driver gear. The table below provides the HP/L for your engine type to calculate the Performance Index for your car:
Engine Type
HP/L
4 cyl air cooled
90
4 cyl air cooled turbo
150
6 cyl air cooled
110
6 cyl air cooled turbo
210
4 cyl 2 valve water cooled
100
4 cyl 2 valve water cooled turbo
200
4 cyl 4 valve water cooled
125
4 cyl 4 valve water cooled turbo
230
6 cyl 986-based (M96 engine, any chassis)
135
6 cyl 987-based (M97 engine, any chassis)
140 6 cyl GT3 with single throttle 165 6 cyl GT3 with six throttle bodies 175
6 cyl water cooled turbo (any chassis)
240
8 cyl 2 valve
90
8 cyl 2 valve turbo
145
8 cyl 4 valve
100
8 cyl 4 valve turbo
165
Classification is as follows:
Performance Index Class
425 and below GT-1 R/S
426 to 550 GT-2 R/S
551 to 675 GT-3 R/S
676 to 825 GT-4 R/S
826 to 975 GT-5 R/S
976 and above GT-6 R/S