Was Alonso Treated Unfairly at Mclaren?
01-18-2011, 05:52 PM
#31
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Ok, time to cause trouble. 
All kidding aside, I must say that I am very disappointed that I wasn't able to pay attention to the 07 Formula 1 season nearly as closely as I would have liked. It also happened to be a season that caused a lot of differing opinions about Alonso. I've looked through all the F1 sources I tap to get a good idea of what's going on except one. I think I have a feeling that I know what went on and have a reasonable opinion of him.
That said, I'd like to see if there was anything that I missed, considering how closely this forum pays attention to him.
I'd like to know if you think he was at a disadvantage politically and technically. I know everyone here has his own bias, but I guess I'm looking to see where you get them. Above all else, if we could try to keep it (somewhat) civil and offer evidence rather than just opinion, that would be outstanding. FWIW, evidence doesn't have to just be what happened. Rather, I'd like to hear the opinions of reputable journalists, commentators, etc. Thanks all. Let's hope this goes well. 
All kidding aside, I must say that I am very disappointed that I wasn't able to pay attention to the 07 Formula 1 season nearly as closely as I would have liked. It also happened to be a season that caused a lot of differing opinions about Alonso. I've looked through all the F1 sources I tap to get a good idea of what's going on except one. I think I have a feeling that I know what went on and have a reasonable opinion of him. That said, I'd like to see if there was anything that I missed, considering how closely this forum pays attention to him.
I'd like to know if you think he was at a disadvantage politically and technically. I know everyone here has his own bias, but I guess I'm looking to see where you get them. Above all else, if we could try to keep it (somewhat) civil and offer evidence rather than just opinion, that would be outstanding. FWIW, evidence doesn't have to just be what happened. Rather, I'd like to hear the opinions of reputable journalists, commentators, etc. Thanks all. Let's hope this goes well. You want the truth? A lot on Rennlist cannot handle the truth? But here it is...
Above everything else, Alonso, at the root of his soul is INSECURE. According to prior postings from A Wayne, he has a tiny **** and mommy issues.
01-18-2011, 06:05 PM
#32
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Okay, I had to just to get into the winter testing mood.
Alonso is insecure as a man, but a very good driver. Only twice in his career has he been treated equally, the rest of the time he has been favored within the team. The first time he was treated as an equal driver is when he broke into F1 with the Minardi team. He did well there and got the seat with Renault where he was never anything but the #1.
The second time Alonso was treated as an equal with his teammate was after the 5th race of the 2007 season. Once Hamilton won his 1st GP in Canada and followed that up with a back to back victory at Indy, Hamilton was on equal footing with Alonso.
This did not sit well with the insecure Spanard and promptly displayed his displeasure on international TV with his blocking of Hamilton in the pits. In defense of Alonso, Hamilton did not yield to Alonso as he should have and Alonso took matters into his won hands rather than have the team deal with the now defiant and brash Hamilton. (Team orders anyone?)
Ron Dennis ever the control freak, did not like to be shown up in public by anyone let alone someone he was paying millions of dollars to drive for HIS team and did not speak with FA after the incident.
Only afterwards did FA play the blackmail card and try to secure the #1 driver status by threatening to go public with the stolen Ferrari dossier if Ron Dennis did not give him what he wanted.
Ron Dennis promptly make it public about the stolen secrets rather than be blackmailed by Alonso.
For his cooperation, Alonso was given immunity by the FIA and retained his Superlicense.
The aforementioned is all fact. Raj may disagree, but he could never disagree with the content and timing of the events.
Alonso is insecure as a man, but a very good driver. Only twice in his career has he been treated equally, the rest of the time he has been favored within the team. The first time he was treated as an equal driver is when he broke into F1 with the Minardi team. He did well there and got the seat with Renault where he was never anything but the #1.
The second time Alonso was treated as an equal with his teammate was after the 5th race of the 2007 season. Once Hamilton won his 1st GP in Canada and followed that up with a back to back victory at Indy, Hamilton was on equal footing with Alonso.
This did not sit well with the insecure Spanard and promptly displayed his displeasure on international TV with his blocking of Hamilton in the pits. In defense of Alonso, Hamilton did not yield to Alonso as he should have and Alonso took matters into his won hands rather than have the team deal with the now defiant and brash Hamilton. (Team orders anyone?)
Ron Dennis ever the control freak, did not like to be shown up in public by anyone let alone someone he was paying millions of dollars to drive for HIS team and did not speak with FA after the incident.
Only afterwards did FA play the blackmail card and try to secure the #1 driver status by threatening to go public with the stolen Ferrari dossier if Ron Dennis did not give him what he wanted.
Ron Dennis promptly make it public about the stolen secrets rather than be blackmailed by Alonso.
For his cooperation, Alonso was given immunity by the FIA and retained his Superlicense.
The aforementioned is all fact. Raj may disagree, but he could never disagree with the content and timing of the events.
01-18-2011, 06:17 PM
#33
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You forgot the part where Lewis flat out drove Fernando (and everyone else) for the first half of the season. At that point Fernando hadn't shown he was #1 and so then began Lewis' treatment as an equal. Talking about crying, how about Fernando crying to Mclaren telling them not even to let Lewis drive, and using blackmail? Alonso's scumball tactics are well documented.
Cry me a river, so Fernando didn't get to burn off fuel, if he couldn't get past Lewis during qualifying that means Lewis had to have been on hot laps, and if all Fernando was trying to do is burn fuel, he would have conversely blocked Lewis from setting his best lap. So where exactly does this make sense?
Cry me a river, so Fernando didn't get to burn off fuel, if he couldn't get past Lewis during qualifying that means Lewis had to have been on hot laps, and if all Fernando was trying to do is burn fuel, he would have conversely blocked Lewis from setting his best lap. So where exactly does this make sense?
Absolutely 100% spot on.
I love watching the ultra-thin-skinned Alonsette apologists here flail.
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01-18-2011, 06:24 PM
#34
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01-18-2011, 06:24 PM
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I guess the Alonso huggers forget the fact that their boy has been a big part two of the biggest scandals in F1 history.
Talk about selective memory, all of this makes me remember how despicable Alonso has been. Who blackmails their own team with information that they benefited from well AFTER they've been using it to their benefit for the better part of the season.
And didn't Alonso have something to do with spygate before the falling out? It didn't matter what was going on until he could use it as leverage to blackmail the team and get his way.
Alonso drives well, but some of his antics make him a contradiction to everything the sport stands for. I sure hope Massa returns to form next year and runs him strong, then we'll see if he folds again.
Talk about selective memory, all of this makes me remember how despicable Alonso has been. Who blackmails their own team with information that they benefited from well AFTER they've been using it to their benefit for the better part of the season.
And didn't Alonso have something to do with spygate before the falling out? It didn't matter what was going on until he could use it as leverage to blackmail the team and get his way.
Alonso drives well, but some of his antics make him a contradiction to everything the sport stands for. I sure hope Massa returns to form next year and runs him strong, then we'll see if he folds again.
01-18-2011, 06:42 PM
#36
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I guess the Alonso huggers forget the fact that their boy has been a big part two of the biggest scandals in F1 history.
Talk about selective memory, all of this makes me remember how despicable Alonso has been. Who blackmails their own team with information that they benefited from well AFTER they've been using it to their benefit for the better part of the season.
And didn't Alonso have something to do with spygate before the falling out? It didn't matter what was going on until he could use it as leverage to blackmail the team and get his way.
Alonso drives well, but some of his antics make him a contradiction to everything the sport stands for. I sure hope Massa returns to form next year and runs him strong, then we'll see if he folds again.
Talk about selective memory, all of this makes me remember how despicable Alonso has been. Who blackmails their own team with information that they benefited from well AFTER they've been using it to their benefit for the better part of the season.
And didn't Alonso have something to do with spygate before the falling out? It didn't matter what was going on until he could use it as leverage to blackmail the team and get his way.
Alonso drives well, but some of his antics make him a contradiction to everything the sport stands for. I sure hope Massa returns to form next year and runs him strong, then we'll see if he folds again.
Was Alonso the only one involved, well they must have kicked him out of the sport huh ....
If memory is correct , RD and FB were the only ones kicked out of the sport , well dat other guy 2 , but i cant say it . So please post the evidence of Alonso stealing, charged, fined, anything?
c'mon the FIA must have imposed some kind of penalty.....
01-18-2011, 06:56 PM
#37
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Doood ..
Was Alonso the only one involved, well they must have kicked him out of the sport huh ....
If memory is correct , RD and FB were the only ones kicked out of the sport , well dat other guy 2 , but i cant say it . So please post the evidence of Alonso stealing, charged, fined, anything?
c'mon the FIA must have imposed some kind of penalty.....
Was Alonso the only one involved, well they must have kicked him out of the sport huh ....
If memory is correct , RD and FB were the only ones kicked out of the sport , well dat other guy 2 , but i cant say it . So please post the evidence of Alonso stealing, charged, fined, anything?
c'mon the FIA must have imposed some kind of penalty.....
•Info on Ferrari car exchanged between Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso
•780-page dossier not the only information leaked from Ferrari
•WMSC believes McLaren given a "significant sporting advantage" from the leak
•Lewis Hamilton not implicated in the affairNext Article in World Sport »
Read VIDEO PHOTOSBy James Snodgrass for CNN
LONDON, England (CNN) -- World champion Fernando Alonso was directly implicated in the Formula 1 spy scandal, according to emails released by the sport's governing body.
Fernando Alonso will not punished because he gave evidence in exchange for immunity.
more photos » The FIA World Motor Sports Council on Friday published a detailed report into its decision to fine McClaren a record $100 million and expel the team from this year's constructors' championship over its appropriation of confidential Ferrari data.
The ruling on McLaren's breach of Article 151(c) of the International Sporting Code reveals that the scale of the scandal ran deeper than previously reported and that two drivers -- Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa -- are implicated in the affair.
The FIA said Thursday McLaren's drivers would not be punished because they gave evidence in exchange for immunity.
Lewis Hamilton, who also drives for McLaren, told the FIA he had no information relating to the breach.
The breach relates to confidential information supplied to McLaren's technical director, Mike Coughlan from Ferrari performance director Nigel Stepney. Previously the breach was thought to be limited to a 780-page dossier but it has now transpired that there was regular contact between Coughlan and Stepney.
It has been revealed that Pedro de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan by email on March 21 2007: "Hi Mike do you know the Red Car's [Ferrari's] weight distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator."
De la Rosa confirmed to the WMSC council that he received a text message from Coughlan with precise details of the Ferrari cars' weight distribution.
Four days later, de la Rosa sent an email to Fernando Alonso, informing him of the Ferrari cars' weight distribution -- to two decimal places -- as raced at the Australian Grand Prix a week earlier.Alonso replied, questioning whether the information was 100 per cent accurate. De la Rosa replied: "All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic ... he's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that."
Don't Miss
Dennis determined to carry on
McLaren guilty but drivers race on
The 'Spygate' story
De la Rosa also brought Alonso's attention to a gas used by Ferrari to inflate its tires to keep down internal temperature and reduce blistering.
In Alonso's reply the Spanish driver states that McLaren should test the Ferrari gas in its own tires. "They have something different from the rest," he wrote, "... let's hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!"
On April 12, de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan requesting information about Ferrari's braking system, to which Coughlan replied: "We are looking at something similar."
The WMSC concluded that, despite McLaren having an incomplete description of Ferrari's braking system, the McLaren system "was being worked on from a position of knowledge of the details of the Ferrari system, which, even if the Ferrari system not being directly copied, must be more advantageous to McLaren than designing a system without such knowledge."
Most damaging to McLaren is the evidence that the 780-page dossier was not the entire breach. Evidence submitted to Ferrari by the Italian Police, who studied records of telephone, SMS and email contacts between Coughlan and Stepney suggest that the pair exchanged at least 288 text messages and 35 telephone call between March 11 and July 3, 2007.
The Italian police also noted that Ferrari's chief mechanic Federico Uguzzoni, was suspicious of Stepney when he requested technical details pertaining to Ferrari tests in Malaysia.
The report continued: "The WMSC believes that the nature of the information illicitly held by McLaren was information of a nature which, if used in any way taken into account, could confer a significant sporting advantage upon McLaren."
McLaren is considering making an appeal against the verdict.
01-18-2011, 09:35 PM
#39
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Alonso fans ... Logic
Jumbo ... Shrimp
there are some things that just belong.
Not to worry...next season was built for Alonso ... Team orders are allowed...what a menu of choices for Ferrari and Santander to pick from...
Jumbo ... Shrimp
there are some things that just belong.
Not to worry...next season was built for Alonso ... Team orders are allowed...what a menu of choices for Ferrari and Santander to pick from...
01-18-2011, 11:34 PM
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World champion linked to F1 'Spygate'Story Highlights
•Info on Ferrari car exchanged between Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso
•780-page dossier not the only information leaked from Ferrari
•WMSC believes McLaren given a "significant sporting advantage" from the leak
•Lewis Hamilton not implicated in the affairNext Article in World Sport »
Read VIDEO PHOTOSBy James Snodgrass for CNN
LONDON, England (CNN) -- World champion Fernando Alonso was directly implicated in the Formula 1 spy scandal, according to emails released by the sport's governing body.
Fernando Alonso will not punished because he gave evidence in exchange for immunity.
more photos » The FIA World Motor Sports Council on Friday published a detailed report into its decision to fine McClaren a record $100 million and expel the team from this year's constructors' championship over its appropriation of confidential Ferrari data.
The ruling on McLaren's breach of Article 151(c) of the International Sporting Code reveals that the scale of the scandal ran deeper than previously reported and that two drivers -- Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa -- are implicated in the affair.
The FIA said Thursday McLaren's drivers would not be punished because they gave evidence in exchange for immunity.
Lewis Hamilton, who also drives for McLaren, told the FIA he had no information relating to the breach.
The breach relates to confidential information supplied to McLaren's technical director, Mike Coughlan from Ferrari performance director Nigel Stepney. Previously the breach was thought to be limited to a 780-page dossier but it has now transpired that there was regular contact between Coughlan and Stepney.
It has been revealed that Pedro de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan by email on March 21 2007: "Hi Mike do you know the Red Car's [Ferrari's] weight distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator."
De la Rosa confirmed to the WMSC council that he received a text message from Coughlan with precise details of the Ferrari cars' weight distribution.
Four days later, de la Rosa sent an email to Fernando Alonso, informing him of the Ferrari cars' weight distribution -- to two decimal places -- as raced at the Australian Grand Prix a week earlier.Alonso replied, questioning whether the information was 100 per cent accurate. De la Rosa replied: "All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic ... he's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that."
Don't Miss
Dennis determined to carry on
McLaren guilty but drivers race on
The 'Spygate' story
De la Rosa also brought Alonso's attention to a gas used by Ferrari to inflate its tires to keep down internal temperature and reduce blistering.
In Alonso's reply the Spanish driver states that McLaren should test the Ferrari gas in its own tires. "They have something different from the rest," he wrote, "... let's hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!"
On April 12, de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan requesting information about Ferrari's braking system, to which Coughlan replied: "We are looking at something similar."
The WMSC concluded that, despite McLaren having an incomplete description of Ferrari's braking system, the McLaren system "was being worked on from a position of knowledge of the details of the Ferrari system, which, even if the Ferrari system not being directly copied, must be more advantageous to McLaren than designing a system without such knowledge."
Most damaging to McLaren is the evidence that the 780-page dossier was not the entire breach. Evidence submitted to Ferrari by the Italian Police, who studied records of telephone, SMS and email contacts between Coughlan and Stepney suggest that the pair exchanged at least 288 text messages and 35 telephone call between March 11 and July 3, 2007.
The Italian police also noted that Ferrari's chief mechanic Federico Uguzzoni, was suspicious of Stepney when he requested technical details pertaining to Ferrari tests in Malaysia.
The report continued: "The WMSC believes that the nature of the information illicitly held by McLaren was information of a nature which, if used in any way taken into account, could confer a significant sporting advantage upon McLaren."
McLaren is considering making an appeal against the verdict.
•Info on Ferrari car exchanged between Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso
•780-page dossier not the only information leaked from Ferrari
•WMSC believes McLaren given a "significant sporting advantage" from the leak
•Lewis Hamilton not implicated in the affairNext Article in World Sport »
Read VIDEO PHOTOSBy James Snodgrass for CNN
LONDON, England (CNN) -- World champion Fernando Alonso was directly implicated in the Formula 1 spy scandal, according to emails released by the sport's governing body.
Fernando Alonso will not punished because he gave evidence in exchange for immunity.
more photos » The FIA World Motor Sports Council on Friday published a detailed report into its decision to fine McClaren a record $100 million and expel the team from this year's constructors' championship over its appropriation of confidential Ferrari data.
The ruling on McLaren's breach of Article 151(c) of the International Sporting Code reveals that the scale of the scandal ran deeper than previously reported and that two drivers -- Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa -- are implicated in the affair.
The FIA said Thursday McLaren's drivers would not be punished because they gave evidence in exchange for immunity.
Lewis Hamilton, who also drives for McLaren, told the FIA he had no information relating to the breach.
The breach relates to confidential information supplied to McLaren's technical director, Mike Coughlan from Ferrari performance director Nigel Stepney. Previously the breach was thought to be limited to a 780-page dossier but it has now transpired that there was regular contact between Coughlan and Stepney.
It has been revealed that Pedro de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan by email on March 21 2007: "Hi Mike do you know the Red Car's [Ferrari's] weight distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator."
De la Rosa confirmed to the WMSC council that he received a text message from Coughlan with precise details of the Ferrari cars' weight distribution.
Four days later, de la Rosa sent an email to Fernando Alonso, informing him of the Ferrari cars' weight distribution -- to two decimal places -- as raced at the Australian Grand Prix a week earlier.Alonso replied, questioning whether the information was 100 per cent accurate. De la Rosa replied: "All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic ... he's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that."
Don't Miss
Dennis determined to carry on
McLaren guilty but drivers race on
The 'Spygate' story
De la Rosa also brought Alonso's attention to a gas used by Ferrari to inflate its tires to keep down internal temperature and reduce blistering.
In Alonso's reply the Spanish driver states that McLaren should test the Ferrari gas in its own tires. "They have something different from the rest," he wrote, "... let's hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!"
On April 12, de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan requesting information about Ferrari's braking system, to which Coughlan replied: "We are looking at something similar."
The WMSC concluded that, despite McLaren having an incomplete description of Ferrari's braking system, the McLaren system "was being worked on from a position of knowledge of the details of the Ferrari system, which, even if the Ferrari system not being directly copied, must be more advantageous to McLaren than designing a system without such knowledge."
Most damaging to McLaren is the evidence that the 780-page dossier was not the entire breach. Evidence submitted to Ferrari by the Italian Police, who studied records of telephone, SMS and email contacts between Coughlan and Stepney suggest that the pair exchanged at least 288 text messages and 35 telephone call between March 11 and July 3, 2007.
The Italian police also noted that Ferrari's chief mechanic Federico Uguzzoni, was suspicious of Stepney when he requested technical details pertaining to Ferrari tests in Malaysia.
The report continued: "The WMSC believes that the nature of the information illicitly held by McLaren was information of a nature which, if used in any way taken into account, could confer a significant sporting advantage upon McLaren."
McLaren is considering making an appeal against the verdict.
Oh SNAP!!!!!
Wayne, just because FA hasn't been banned doesn't mean he hasn't done anything wrong. He just got what he could from it and snitched on everyone else so they could take the fall.
He's lucky the FIA didn't make rules against blackmailing your team or acting like you didn't know the plans to cheat for you to win a race.
The common theme is that FA will do whatever it takes to come out on top, and then do whatever it takes not to take any blame for it. No one can doubt his driving ability, but he makes himself hard to support with things like this on his resume. He's a good enough driver to win without all of that nonsense.
01-19-2011, 01:22 AM
#42
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
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Ahhh , i must have missed it , are you saying Ronnie was not kicked out of F1?
Here... have a drink, you must be cold ...
Wanna,
Alonso is but a pawn in the F1 circus of politics, they all are ! blow away the smoke and focus ...
1. Alonso did not steal anything from Ferrari.
2. Team Mclaren used the data, not Alonso.
Here... have a drink, you must be cold ...
Alonso is but a pawn in the F1 circus of politics, they all are ! blow away the smoke and focus ...
1. Alonso did not steal anything from Ferrari.
2. Team Mclaren used the data, not Alonso.
01-19-2011, 02:00 AM
#43
Drifting
Yes, I am saying that Ron Dennis was not kicked out of F-1.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/7833402.stm
You have seen him attending the races, right?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/7833402.stm
You have seen him attending the races, right?
01-19-2011, 02:09 AM
#44
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
LOL...
Will force sit better with you than Kicked ? When Ron was forced to relinquish his position at Mclaren , he was not forced "out" ? What about Flavio? he still attend races, as Ron , as Mosley, was Max forced out ?
Ahhhhh..................
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle2379042.ece
Will force sit better with you than Kicked ? When Ron was forced to relinquish his position at Mclaren , he was not forced "out" ? What about Flavio? he still attend races, as Ron , as Mosley, was Max forced out ?
Ahhhhh..................
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle2379042.ece
01-19-2011, 02:22 AM
#45
Drifting
After "crashgate" Flavio was given a lifetime ban from all FIA sanctioned series (since overturned, I know, I know...) and Symonds give a five year ban (yes, I know, also overturned...) from Formula 1. I've not seen anything that specifically states that Ron Dennis was given a ban from F-1 in any capacity by the FIA.
Conjecture from the British press does not count.
Conjecture from the British press does not count.