I want to thank everyone for adding there comments on my last set of questions regarding instructors driving student cars. The next topic I want to address is:

Instructors telling students to turn off traction control. Do you? Should you? the issue is that students are showing up with cars that are faster and more capable than the year before. we have all been in cars where the electronics was saving the student.

Our club does not yet have a policy regarding this. the pros are, that at some point the advanced driver will not achieve car control with the nannies at work, the con's are if the student crashes because of your request to turn off the TC what responsibility does the instructor share for that instructional tool.

Does your club encourage or permit you do do it. If so, when do you do it and how.

A club in our region had a student that was encouraged to take off the Nannies and went out in the next session and rolled it into the fence.

 

Tod, I think if you check with Pete Tremper there is a national policy on this covered during the instructor training course. Instructing with a completely different car club a year ago. Another instructor suggested a student drive without his DSC/traction aid and it ended up with some car damage. Worst case it becomes a would of, should of, could of.........................

 

Just had this discussion at lunch with a bunch of other advanced instructors on Sunday.

My approach is to talk about the pluses & minuses of leaving it on and turning it off, and then telling the student they need to make up their own mind. Both can be learning tools, but I refuse to answer the "should I turn it off or leave it on" question.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

 

Absent an official policy, I've always left it up to the students. I have to admit, I cringe at the thought of some of them trying to save things if/when they every go out without it. But it's their car, and it makes some students feel as though they have a safety net. I don't actually agree with that, but -- again -- it's their car.

I feel significantly less safe driving with traction control engaged.

 

Regretfully had to bag the instructor thing with all the noise regarding liability. Everyone needs to understand that driving at speed has some potential downside, the tipping point for me was when my student neglected to mention some deficiencies in his 993 twin as we were busting 127+ into T7 at Sebring = NO BRAKES. It all sorted out but that was my last time. I do provide co-pilot perspective with my trusted mates but they all know it’s on them. BTW when I have a coach it’s on me.
Big respect to those still instructing and I feel bad about leaving the corps but as the economy continues to slow it seems that some are looking for cover.

 

Over the years, since these became available in main stream cars, this issue has been discussed, and quite frankly, I am not intelligent enough to understand why this is such an important topic.

I do not believe, based on my personal experience, that leaving TC or PSM on takes anything from learning to drive in DEs, or that it inhibits car control. Are there any evidence that leaving the nannies on creates less than optimal drivers?

 

Our rule is that with an instructor in the car, safety systems are turned on. No exceptions. I recall a story about litigation - a student tried to sue because his instructor did not insist he drive with PSM on. Note the instructor did not ask or suggest the student to drive without stability control but he did not insist that it be on.

 

My answer if asked is "If you need me in the right seat leave them on. Once you have enough skill to feel the aids working and intruding on your driving you are good enough to think about turning them off and can do as you wish."

 

During my driving sessions at Porsche Sport Driving School, the buttons to turn the TC/PSM off are disabled. The instructors state that the safety systems are not designed to impact any performance on the car, if the car is in control. If the car is out of control the systems come on. period.

Now it can easily be said that this is just a ploy to ensure less risk of a crash and liability against the Porsche driving school, but the instructors drive the same cars as the students at the track and they aren't corrected by the "always on" safety systems.

I'm not sure of all of the sensors that provide the data to the computers for the Traction control or Stability management to engage? is it yaw, pitch, roll and steering input?
If the car is in a slide, on a track and the traction control comes on to correct, how much more of a slide can actually be corrected by the driver versus the computer?

 

If someone is driving smoothly, (which is the way one should be driving on the track) the electronic nannies are most likely to stay at bay. IE" throttle steering won't engage traction control in most cases. However, stepping on the brakes mid-turn, or getting rather steep slip angles will.

On the other hand, a student may believe that they can push the car futher with traction control on vs. off. And at some point, there is no traction control system that can defy the laws of physics. So a false sense of security in traction control can cause a driver to get in over his head.

Incidentally, most Porsche TC systems will engage if the driver does something silly like hit the brakes mid-term - at least the latest versions of TC. So it is always there, ready to 'fix' a problem.

My take?
1. I encourage them to leave TC on. If they are mooth, TC won't come into play anyway.
2. I don't let TC / PSM or any other system to do the teaching for me. (IE: I won't hang my student out to dry and let the TC / PSM system intervene to save our skin.)
3. Like stated before -- if they think they are ready to turn TC off, I will agree with them only if they are a signed off (solo) driver. While there is an instructor working with them (be it myself or anyone else), there really is no need to turn TC off.

-Z-man.

 

Perhaps that's not something there should be a firm rule on; meaning a rule that applies to all DE students. My last Green student was at his very first event in a car much more powerful than my own. I told him to leave PSM on. I admit that I was more concerned with our safety than about him learning car control without PSM. On the other hand, if I had a Blue student who had already been tracking with PSM off, I'm almost certain I wouldn't make him go back to PSM. I don't know what I'd tell a beginning Blue student with a GT3 who wants to try PSM off for the first time with me instructing.

Another perspective (related to FT's post above): If the student drives on the road with PASM on, why should he be told to turn it off for DEs? It would be another matter entirely if DEs were intended to teach racing techniques.

 

I think you have to go the fundamentals on this one.

The traction control is there to correct and/or minimize a problem. A student should not be so far out of control so as to be creating problems; and therefore traction control on/off question is moot. It should be on.

Part of the problem stems from instructors with the mentality that "traction control gets in the way of car control". While this "might" have been legitimate in the past with regard to early iterations, it is certainly not true today with the advanced systems , and therefore a student who triggers traction control is out of control..and therefore needs that traction control; as does the Instructor riding with him.

When the student can drive laps without triggering "traction control" then at that point they are ready for more challenges or advancement. Traction control is not intrusive, but it is telling both about Instructors and students.

Any Instructor who got in my car and suggested that I turn off traction control would get a "respectful" earful.

I see too many people relying on traction control to save them, and while they may be faster than me I am not convinced they are better drivers.

As an Instructor, volunteering your time and sharing your experience I think it is important not to succumb to the myths that modern modern systems impede progress...but I am just a student.

 

I tell my students to keep the PSM or what ever traction control on. I also do not drive students cars even though my PCA club says for the 1st lap the instructor drives. I do not do it but I will take my student out ofr a few laps at 5-7/10ths but when near traffic i go slow and ease around them. I also just bought a Safety Solution R3 Rage restraint system. The R3 works with a 3 point system or 6 point because it attaches to your body and then the helmet and is seat belt independant.

I've had a few horrible students this year that did not listen and did not "get it" so I pitted them, i've slid and spun through corners too with some and wondered why to myself I instruct these people.

 

On - If I'm in the car, I want every once of safety for me and my student. If the nannies aren't enough, they don't get to use all the gears or go above a set rpm. My student doesn't decide anything - they're the student.

 

I actually check to be sure students aren't pushing those buttons. I leave the "saved your ***" systems on. If the system comes on with a Green Student they are not driving smoothly. It's all about weight transfer and balance. What they do later as the progress is their choice. If I'm in a turbo car I check if they have adjustable boost and have them dial it back. If not- I love the sound of intercooler hoses popping in the morning.