AudiOn19s

I think ON is the way to go in MOST cases, however you are going to have exceptions. I'll let you drive my E46 M3 some time (first session of green run group of course ) and you'll pull your hair out within two laps because of how intrusive the DSC is on that car.

My 996 I never turned it off and never felt it got in the way even turning what I felt were some pretty impressive laps in that car.

Lemming

I had a novice student running a turbo 996 on Saturday, it was his second event. The first two sessions out he was into the PSM under braking in just about every corner, and he could not feel it. I kept trying to get him to brake in a straight line, ease off the brakes and enter the corner. I was discussing this with one of the most senior members of our club and his advice was for me to reach over, turn the PSM off and let the guy spin to teach him a lesson I of course declined, stating that I did not want the responsibility associated with that move. Instead I spent 30 minutes with the student describing how to brake, he did catch on a bit in the 3rd session out but was back to his old tricks in the 4th session

jittsl

If we are talking green and yellow students then I think the discussion is irrelevant. If they are pushing the edge of electric interference then they are probably going too fast. In solo groups I think it should be at the discretion of the driver. After all we as instructors spend plenty of time in older cars that don't have the option. One thing is for certain in my mind - electronic interference does nothing to help a driver learn to drive.

Jim Michaels

This is a fruitful discussion, with many thoughtful responses. It's informed my own previous thoughts.

I don't think anyone has specifically mentioned PSM-on combined with PASM in sport mode. That combination allows somewhat more yaw before intervention, and seems to be a good compromise for instructional purposes. PSM intervention can be felt and seen (light on dash console), so students can know when they've stepped out enough to be of concern to the less restrictive version of PSM. When it occurs for the first time, the instructor may need to call it to the attention of the student, who may never have experienced it before.

I've tracked my own car in sport mode with PSM-on, and with PSM-off. But, after several frantic steering episodes with it off, I now consistently run with it on. PSM intervention informs me of any venture beyond reasonable limits, and thus of any frantic steering episodes avoided. Thanks, Granny. Even sport mode PSM is too intrusive for autocross, so I always run with it off. Yes, I've spun several times.

todinlaw

That is the point, I am not sure that we have a right and wrong answer but a part of risk management is thinking about things before you get into the car. I just emailed Pete Tremper to see if PCA has a position, if they do, its not well known.

We recently did a test pilot run of a PCA advanced instructor training day at Mid Ohio, Our goal was to better prepare PCA instructors in general but spcifically to better handle coaching the advanced student. We all can handle the new to intermediate students but I feel we have a divergence of skill when we get closer to the top of the driving skill ladder. This was apparent to the pros who tought this course.

This is my thoughts. putting on my PCA hat as a DE organizer, and one who has to fill out incident reports, I would argue we should never make that suggest that course of action, to much liability associated with it. From a pure drivers point of view, in truly mastering the handling of a car, The Nanies interfere at some point. Even my 997 GT3 with liberal nannies, when I would rotate the car aggressively I was fighting TC unless I took it off.

The compromise could be that 1) Never push doing it, 2) if a student wants to take them off, only consider it once they are one of the most advanced and truly skilled drivers in THIS Car and in control. 3) only with you in the car so you can monitor the progress.

This is an advanced training technique.

It is either that or nothing for me. I will update when I hear from Pete.

docwyte

I always have my novice students keep it on. Had a student in a new Corvette Z06 recently, that's a car where the TC is a good thing.

If they're driving smoothly, it never really comes on. With the more advanced students I have them take it off so they can play a little with slip angle, but only if I feel they're ready...

DM993tt

I am a purist when it comes to driving. I am vehemently opposed to PSM/Trac Control when I am behind the wheel. That said I am all for the nannies when instructing. When I have a student that is lighting up the trac control light like Clark Grizwald on Christmas, the last thing in the world I would ever want to tell them is to turn it off. You know its going to take one turn to find an armco or retaining wall -There are much better ways to drive a poiint home.

RickBetterley

Jeez, looking at your avatar I never would have guessed.

George from MD

Bingo. I pretty much say the same thing. If they're in blue or green they should keep them on IMO and the better students will know instantly when the system intervenes (or at least know something weird happened) and you can use that as a learning tool too. The ones who don't recognize them need them the most.

WHB Porsche

For what it's worth, Porsche settled a lawsuit for a fatal CGT accident on track. I believe one of the occupant's wife claimed that by allowing traction control to be turned off, Porsche was partially liable.

Just some food for thought...

himself

Heh, I seldom even talk about tire pressure, much less traction control. If a student shows up and says they want to run with TC off, I let them know what might be different and suggest just taking it slow for a few laps. Perhaps inconsistently, I have no issue suggesting turning sport mode on - again with the caveat that they should take it slow for a few laps until they understand where things might be different.

-td

savowood

My own experience with this is varied. Two examples:

1. A student with a brand new GT-R. This was the first one we'd seen at the track. I took it out first with the student in the passenger seat. I was fairly tame, but pushing a decent lap. Maybe 6 or 7 tenths. Nothing more than that. No TC interaction. The student was next to drive after the 3 or 4 laps I drove, and the TC was constantly kicking in. It was a challenge to get the student reeled in. He felt the TC, but wasn't reacting to it even though I was trying everything I could to get him to. The next session he asked me to drive it like it was mine. I pushed it up to 8 or 9 and showed the student that there was still no TC intervention. The student learned a lot from this and then was more understanding of the concept of smooth. There was still intervention from the TC, but not as bad. However, in the back of my head, every time it kicked in I had the thought of "The car just saved my life again."

2. Older TC technology was very intrusive. For example, a 2000 Boxster's TC is terrible. Even before 7/10ths, it kicks in. You could have Fernando Alonzo driving and it would still engage. It engages at points where when on track, it could make the car unstable. Then it has to fix what it screwed up. It fixes it, but the point is it shouldn't have engaged in the first place. This creates a poor environment for the student to learn. In my own car on track, I turn it off.

An interesting side note, I drove a newer Cayman and found that even with it on and really pushing the car, it didn't engage. Just like we teach our students, smoothness is key.

I guess one could derive from this that I'm a big ***** when in a 500 HP car with a novice student, and feel the TC should be there. However, 200 HP and I have brass *****. LOL

RonCT

I talk about it up front and insist that it stay on, explain the fundamentals that as long as you are driving correctly, it will not interfere, which is true especially in the 997 / 987 products. I think there's so much mis-information out there that newcomers think that they will be better / quicker without the "nannies". It's a federally approved and tested safety device designed into the car. As Kurt said - once they are solo if they want to turn it off, pull the fuse on ABS, etc. it's their decision.

I had a Green student recently who really wanted to try Sport mode, which changed the throttle mapping. I encouraged him not to, that there were already so many variables at work and that changing another key one could set him back a bit on his learning curve. He really wanted to so during 1 session he did - and regretted it. No problems on the track, just that what was a nice linear throttle map became a jumpy one, harder to control. He was harder on his car, less smooth, and thus slower, but got the curiosity out of his system.

savowood

It's obviously not a usual thing. It's the one and only time, and it took a LOT of prodding from him as well as permission (and a stern warning) from the CI. The student asked for it as a teaching tool. I refused initially. You can climb off your high horse now.

85Gold

At an event earlier this year a student paddocked close to me Spun a couple of times on Sat even kissed the tires, just a few scuff marks on the car. I was talking to him and he said his instructor was having him run with the TC off. (This was an M3)

I wasn't surprised when on Sunday he again spun into the tires and this time had to flat bedded in. This was clearly a case of a student overdriving the car and an instructor encouraging it so he would learn car control. This was @ a PCA event.



Peter