Run group Advance - check list
09-20-2010, 10:08 AM
#46
Race Car
Well, 3 years ago I had the unfortunate experience of having the instructor take my car around the track,I was a green student on a new track, and not only was he driving "flat out" but BLEW my engine on the second lap. huge smoke, oil and coolant everywhere... complete engine failure.
This is a concrete example of what could happen, and did... Sure the instructor felt badly, but got over quite quickly since i never heard from him since, not a word, other than he sold his car and have not seen him since.
Never once did the instructor call me to find out what happened to the engine or how i was afterwards... Seriously no class....POS
After having the car towed to the mechanic, and getting him to perform an autopsy, the motor suffered from an intermix failure, when the coolant and oil mix. I also got computer printout on the engine diagnostic and saw than the motor had been over-reved before blowing up (forget the code, but its the really bad one). It cost me over $16,000 for a new motor, and getting my car back on the road one month later. Of course i also lost my 2 day DE event and as the club policy goes NO REFUND.... and the use of my car.
There is no way any instructor will ever drive my car, and if i ever chose to become an instructor, i will never drive a students car. If i really need to show him the line or the track i will take him in my car....
Hopefully this never happens to any of you.....
This is a concrete example of what could happen, and did... Sure the instructor felt badly, but got over quite quickly since i never heard from him since, not a word, other than he sold his car and have not seen him since.
Never once did the instructor call me to find out what happened to the engine or how i was afterwards... Seriously no class....POS
After having the car towed to the mechanic, and getting him to perform an autopsy, the motor suffered from an intermix failure, when the coolant and oil mix. I also got computer printout on the engine diagnostic and saw than the motor had been over-reved before blowing up (forget the code, but its the really bad one). It cost me over $16,000 for a new motor, and getting my car back on the road one month later. Of course i also lost my 2 day DE event and as the club policy goes NO REFUND.... and the use of my car.
There is no way any instructor will ever drive my car, and if i ever chose to become an instructor, i will never drive a students car. If i really need to show him the line or the track i will take him in my car....
Hopefully this never happens to any of you.....
I'm only somewhat familiar with the water cooled cars...but thought there was a rev limiter on all the (later) water cooled engines 996/997/Boxters
Did it happen on a downshift going to say 2nd instead of 4th?
They all have a rev limiter for normal over rev's right? (failing to upshift).
-If a engine blows from an IMS failure, would you consider that the fault of who ever was driving it?
I'd sure like more input on this, since I have been asked to drive students cars... (AND I'm often 'Fishing' for the right gear)
TIA!
09-20-2010, 10:12 AM
#47
Rennlist Member
IMO the only way to over-rev a modern car with a soft or hard rev limiter is to do it on the downshift, where the rev limiter does not intervene.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-20-2010, 10:39 AM
#48
You are correct, there is a rev limiter, and the over rev took place while downshifting... Not sure if he downshifted to the wrong gear. but the engine diagnostic (Motronic 7.2) output confirmed it. Further information the engine had 989 hours on it, and 30k miles.
There is so much documentation about the problems associated with the 996 engine, and
i do believe it would have probably happened eventually, although i would have preferred if it happened while i was driving, and not this instructor driving the hell out of my car...
The end result may be the same, but it would have been easier to swallow if it happened while i was behind the wheel, then sitting in the passenger seat in complete shock.
I would advise to obstain from driving students cars, especially 996's
There is so much documentation about the problems associated with the 996 engine, and
i do believe it would have probably happened eventually, although i would have preferred if it happened while i was driving, and not this instructor driving the hell out of my car...
The end result may be the same, but it would have been easier to swallow if it happened while i was behind the wheel, then sitting in the passenger seat in complete shock.
I would advise to obstain from driving students cars, especially 996's
09-20-2010, 11:06 AM
#49
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Just to be really clear here. When I talk about driving a student's car here I am talking about a green student. An instructor driving in the Green run group at Green run speed pace should feel like a touring lap to the instructor. We are not talking 6 7 or 8 tenths here. We are talking about 3/10s. The example above of a car being over revved and exploded simply should not happen in those circumstances (and I am very sorry to hear it did). Likewise the example of the damaged tire. Similarly the expressed concern above that unpredictable circumstances such as fluid on track can lead to disaster does not apply (at touring pace you should have plenty up your sleeve).
Having said all that, and getting back to the point, I would never mandate this as a requirement nor would I deny the student's or the instructor's right to say no.
Having said all that, and getting back to the point, I would never mandate this as a requirement nor would I deny the student's or the instructor's right to say no.
09-20-2010, 11:10 AM
#50
Rennlist Member
Still don't see the point in ever driving a students car. Anything you can show them on a touring lap in their car you can show them in a touring lap in your own car.
Why even step through that door and expose yourself and the club to that liability?
Why even step through that door and expose yourself and the club to that liability?
09-20-2010, 11:15 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
I will drive a brand new students car for a couple laps to demonstrate smooth steering and brake inputs, show why the cones are placed where they are, point out flag stations, etc. and all at the Green groups pace or slower. This is at about a 4/10ths pace at best and the only way I could hit/break something is if a helicopter dropped a grand piano in front of me. I don't even heel-toe as they aren't going to be...
09-20-2010, 11:22 AM
#52
Gary, i like your grand piano falling from a helicopter example...
An engine failure on a 996 is exactly like a grand piano falling on your head.... and never mind your wallet or your students.
Do you really believe you need to be in your students car to demonstate the track basics, or can the same be achieved in your own car... Does the risk outweigh the reward?????
An engine failure on a 996 is exactly like a grand piano falling on your head.... and never mind your wallet or your students.
Do you really believe you need to be in your students car to demonstate the track basics, or can the same be achieved in your own car... Does the risk outweigh the reward?????
09-20-2010, 11:22 AM
#53
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Read my response at #29. If that doesn't do it for you then I'll put you in the group that would say no.
09-20-2010, 11:29 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
Gary, i like your grand piano falling from a helicopter example...
An engine failure on a 996 is exactly like a grand piano falling on your head.... and never mind your wallet or your students.
Do you really believe you need to be in your students car to demonstate the track basics, or can the same be achieved in your own car... Does the risk outweigh the reward?????
An engine failure on a 996 is exactly like a grand piano falling on your head.... and never mind your wallet or your students.
Do you really believe you need to be in your students car to demonstate the track basics, or can the same be achieved in your own car... Does the risk outweigh the reward?????
09-20-2010, 11:35 AM
#55
Race Car
Thank you!
I have asked a student to drive his car, on the 2nd session of the 2nd day, after having him in my car for a session (2nd day), and he was still missing 2 things I was trying to teach.
1, actually using the brakes (996TT), and 2, not shifting coming out of a turn.
After repeatedly telling him to try and break the brake peddle he was still only getting to a 5 out of 10 peddle. (and the shifting points were totally different in my car. -the up shifting could have been worked on, but it was dangerous, 'cause about every 3 lap he'd up shift when we were still turning (tracking out), and gaining speed. )
-The not using the brakes was making me hold him back... Anyway, I only went out for 3-4 laps, and we switched seats, (I used his blue session).
I can see where this, (driving students cars) could be abused, and I am more hesitant than ever...
Hell, I'm hesitant to instruct At All these days....
I have asked a student to drive his car, on the 2nd session of the 2nd day, after having him in my car for a session (2nd day), and he was still missing 2 things I was trying to teach.
1, actually using the brakes (996TT), and 2, not shifting coming out of a turn.
After repeatedly telling him to try and break the brake peddle he was still only getting to a 5 out of 10 peddle. (and the shifting points were totally different in my car. -the up shifting could have been worked on, but it was dangerous, 'cause about every 3 lap he'd up shift when we were still turning (tracking out), and gaining speed. )
-The not using the brakes was making me hold him back... Anyway, I only went out for 3-4 laps, and we switched seats, (I used his blue session).
I can see where this, (driving students cars) could be abused, and I am more hesitant than ever...
Hell, I'm hesitant to instruct At All these days....
09-20-2010, 09:55 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
As liability relates to this topic of driving student cars, I think each club needs to come up with a clear set of rules or limitations if you like that word better.(That is important as you want to stay within your job description as an instructor) You are covered as long as you follow the rules. So if you should be driving a students car and someone gets hurt, you will want to be sure you are following the club rules to the tee.
Personally I accept the opinions that driving a students car, has value as an instructional tool. After our discussion I think we will try this at our next event, but I think we would limit it to just the Green student's first session or first day at the track.
Frank, I am glad that info helped. Let me know if you need anything else.
Regarding driving students' cars: some instructors I know are hooers about this, and I think it is a mistake (and sets a bad example). The instructors who drive or try to drive everybody's car are overcompensating IMO, and are unduly risking liability for themselves & their organization.
I will drive a student's car only on rare occasions,
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Regarding driving students' cars: some instructors I know are hooers about this, and I think it is a mistake (and sets a bad example). The instructors who drive or try to drive everybody's car are overcompensating IMO, and are unduly risking liability for themselves & their organization.
I will drive a student's car only on rare occasions,
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-20-2010, 11:13 PM
#57
Still plays with cars.
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Member
On a side note regarding driver advancement; how do your regions deal with upper group drivers bringing personal coaches to your DEs? Can they come to your events, drive the student's car to lay down some benchmark laps then go out the student, etc.?
Edit - by coaches I mean current or retired professional drivers. Known entities.
Edit - by coaches I mean current or retired professional drivers. Known entities.
09-20-2010, 11:17 PM
#58
Still plays with cars.
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Frank, we drive a newcomer's car for two laps - slowly, in the first session. Thereafter the student drives. We can take students out in our cars in lower run groups and never in Red.
As a rule, we discourage driving student's cars except as stated above.
As a rule, we discourage driving student's cars except as stated above.
09-20-2010, 11:26 PM
#59
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Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-21-2010, 09:02 AM
#60
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Thanks for the input, Frank, Bob & Dave. I suspect my region will have similar rules regarding Coaches at DEs as Bob and Dave's. I'll find out this week.
Some tracks are more difficult to get private coaching at because of the cost. Rd Atl runs 30k - 40k/wknd and probably 10k a day during the week. Few small groups are likely to rent for test and tune and private coaching. There are opportunities but they are more limited.
Some tracks are more difficult to get private coaching at because of the cost. Rd Atl runs 30k - 40k/wknd and probably 10k a day during the week. Few small groups are likely to rent for test and tune and private coaching. There are opportunities but they are more limited.