Run group Advance - check list
09-19-2010, 02:43 PM
#31
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[QUOTE=jittsl;7907988]The statement may be true in a very few cases but without an instructor in the car how do you ever advance?
Most of the advancement comes once the student goes solo. Tricky portions of a track will require additional help. IMHO, speaking with an instructor during a break typically result in the instructor asking to ride along. Most students will accept his request, and advancement will eventually result. I bet most clubs encourage this.
Most of the advancement comes once the student goes solo. Tricky portions of a track will require additional help. IMHO, speaking with an instructor during a break typically result in the instructor asking to ride along. Most students will accept his request, and advancement will eventually result. I bet most clubs encourage this.
09-19-2010, 03:41 PM
#32
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Although I fully concur that the best answer to overcoming obstacles (which i see as much more than simply "tricky portions of a track") is to seek out help, I must gracefully disagree with your statement "most of the advancement comes once the student goes solo". In my experience, myself, and most people I know, tend to simply reinforce bad habits when left to our own devices. There are exceptions but most of them have already been offered professional rides. Despite a couple of hundred track days I still make it a habit to seek out a fellow instructor to offer a second opinion. Mostly I find It valuable.
09-19-2010, 06:33 PM
#34
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http://www.porschenet.com/JCMS/content/view/27/59/
The above link will take you to NER's advancement policies and checklists. The principle difference between NER and most other groups is that advancement beyond yellow requires the approval of BOTH an instructor and of the Chief Instructor (or his/her nominee). It is a bit of a pain for some people (particularly those who need to drive flat out and therefore must be moved to the fastest run group immediately) but it does help to ensure consistency.
As to the question of whether or not to use the student's or the instructor's car for demonstrations. As I stated above I usually do both. My thought is that driving the student's car helps to make the experience more real for the student. A trip in my car can be fun and can be educational but is not instantly transferred to the job of driving their own car. My car is set up as a track car and has "R" tires, most student's cars are not. Because of this difference I'm not sure that it is the same as showing them what their car should feel and sound like when driven by them. Even at touring pace I am giving them a fairly good indication of what I would like them to emulate in the first few sessions.
The above link will take you to NER's advancement policies and checklists. The principle difference between NER and most other groups is that advancement beyond yellow requires the approval of BOTH an instructor and of the Chief Instructor (or his/her nominee). It is a bit of a pain for some people (particularly those who need to drive flat out and therefore must be moved to the fastest run group immediately) but it does help to ensure consistency.
As to the question of whether or not to use the student's or the instructor's car for demonstrations. As I stated above I usually do both. My thought is that driving the student's car helps to make the experience more real for the student. A trip in my car can be fun and can be educational but is not instantly transferred to the job of driving their own car. My car is set up as a track car and has "R" tires, most student's cars are not. Because of this difference I'm not sure that it is the same as showing them what their car should feel and sound like when driven by them. Even at touring pace I am giving them a fairly good indication of what I would like them to emulate in the first few sessions.
On a side note regarding driver advancement; how do your regions deal with upper group drivers bringing personal coaches to your DEs? Can they come to your events, drive the student's car to lay down some benchmark laps then go out the student, etc.?
Edit - by coaches I mean current or retired professional drivers. Known entities.
Edit - by coaches I mean current or retired professional drivers. Known entities.
However, this does bring up an interesting question about our liability and liability insurance. I am going to be posting some different threads sharing wiht you a paper I have drafted with PCA on our liability coverage, I think we are taking risk by permitting an outsider to come in and instruct one of our DE students. If you have a comfort zone about both the student and the coach then I think it passes my test but if you have no independent knowledge about the the people involved I think it could cause problems.
09-19-2010, 06:52 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
I think these lists are wise and good for folks to know. I am relatively new to instructing but I had a "good" green student the last event. I thought he might be ready for blue even though it was like his second or 3rd event (some AX beforehand). I wanted to go over the checklist with him, but the CI had moved stuff around and we couldn't locate a copy. My region is pretty strict about advancement. Everyone has a checkout for the next group.
I like that one of the criteria in one of the links posted was proper seatbelt usage.
09-19-2010, 06:59 PM
#36
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as a rule, our instructors drive the students cars for the first two ( or more ) laps on the first day on the students first run.
we point out the line and the flag stations.
we then pit and switch, if the student says that he/she is ready.
the only time we would get back into the students drivers' seat is if the student just doesn"t "get it" and "needs" to be shown the line again.
that is left up to the discretion of the instructor.
as a disclaimer, when the insrtuctor drives the students' car, it is usually done so at 6tenths.
we don't put the student in an instrutors car right away----
i'm not sure what there is to be learned from it.
instructors cool down laps are frquently faster than a noobies first "out" laps.
we point out the line and the flag stations.
we then pit and switch, if the student says that he/she is ready.
the only time we would get back into the students drivers' seat is if the student just doesn"t "get it" and "needs" to be shown the line again.
that is left up to the discretion of the instructor.
as a disclaimer, when the insrtuctor drives the students' car, it is usually done so at 6tenths.
we don't put the student in an instrutors car right away----
i'm not sure what there is to be learned from it.
instructors cool down laps are frquently faster than a noobies first "out" laps.
09-19-2010, 08:52 PM
#37
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As per the post above at NER we normally take a couple of laps minimum (presuming that both the student and the instructor are willing - either may decline without consequence). Having said that I have had a student recently who asked me to drive an entire session and I obliged. I drove it at Green pace.
At NER there is no restriction or rules around how much or how little time is spent driving the student's car just a suggestion of a couple of laps at the first run. From there it is up to the instructor and the student.
At NER there is no restriction or rules around how much or how little time is spent driving the student's car just a suggestion of a couple of laps at the first run. From there it is up to the instructor and the student.
09-19-2010, 09:58 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Ain't that the truth. It's funny when 90 seems slow. Then again, I have such a slow car, I could drive ***** out in the blue group these days and won't have an issue.
As with when I was a student, I wait a couple of sessions to put them in my car. End of the first day or so. I talk a lot (which makes me slow down) so I find it pretty easy to demonstrate where I want people to be on the track if they haven't been able to hit those spots or whathaveyou. I had one guy pinching in a turn repeatedly, so I drove way out to show him the fact the pavement was actually there.
09-19-2010, 11:03 PM
#40
Race Car
Really? I'd assume the "you break it, you bought it" rule would be in effect. I know if I were a student letting an instructor drive my car and something happens, I'd be more than a little upset if they didn't step up to the plate and take care of whatever damage occurred...
the next morning, I drove the car 2 laps, and jumped on the brakes, to free up what turned out to be a stuck RF caliper. (930).
I can't imagine how weird it would have been instructing him had I not found the caliper was stuck, and got it unstuck. (he had no clue anything was wrong)....
driving the car has its benefits!
-I've also spotted a tire rub/cut on a student car in the walkaround /greeting. (again, didn't know about it), we chalked the tire, and I said if we start rubbing, he's done for the weekend.. (he agreed). (or we'd roll the fender, but I really didn't want to risk his paint doing a trackside job.) turned out fine, but its surprising what is missed...
09-19-2010, 11:36 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Frank, I am glad that info helped. Let me know if you need anything else.
Regarding driving students' cars: some instructors I know are hooers about this, and I think it is a mistake (and sets a bad example). The instructors who drive or try to drive everybody's car are overcompensating IMO, and are unduly risking liability for themselves & their organization.
I will drive a student's car only on rare occasions, and these days only if it is caged (or at least has a high quality roll bar, such as we see in many GT3's). Today, instructing for Maverick PCA, I was asked to drive an advanced student's (who wants to go club racing) fully caged BMW. I was asked to not only demonstrate some of the non-school lines I advocate, but also give feedback about the car and its set up.
I promised the student I would drive no more than 5 laps, so as not to use up his car, and would not beat the schit out of his car. I am very respectful of other peoples' cars when I drive them.
And I assumed that, if I took the car off track & damaged it, I would pay to fix it, whereas if the car broke (i.e., brake rotor cracked, end link failed, oil leak), the car owner would be responsible. We had fun, no issues, and it was very valuable experience for the owner.
On Saturday morning, I drove mglobe's car, since he signed up just to drive MSR for this event and not instruct, and he wanted a refresher on this track. I was about 1' early on a specific apex on lap 3 or 4, and pushed wide at track out...and in doing so, put the RR wheel (which was the loaded wheel in this corner) beyond the track out curbing. The far edge of the curbing is apparently very sharp, and it immediately deflated the RR tire.
I told Mike as soon as it happened that I would buy him a new tire. Now, as it turns out, he refused, in part because the tire I flattened had 25+ heat cycles on it. But I was prepared to buy him a brand new tire because my tiny mistake led to a flat.
That's how I roll: FLAT out....
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Regarding driving students' cars: some instructors I know are hooers about this, and I think it is a mistake (and sets a bad example). The instructors who drive or try to drive everybody's car are overcompensating IMO, and are unduly risking liability for themselves & their organization.
I will drive a student's car only on rare occasions, and these days only if it is caged (or at least has a high quality roll bar, such as we see in many GT3's). Today, instructing for Maverick PCA, I was asked to drive an advanced student's (who wants to go club racing) fully caged BMW. I was asked to not only demonstrate some of the non-school lines I advocate, but also give feedback about the car and its set up.
I promised the student I would drive no more than 5 laps, so as not to use up his car, and would not beat the schit out of his car. I am very respectful of other peoples' cars when I drive them.
And I assumed that, if I took the car off track & damaged it, I would pay to fix it, whereas if the car broke (i.e., brake rotor cracked, end link failed, oil leak), the car owner would be responsible. We had fun, no issues, and it was very valuable experience for the owner.
On Saturday morning, I drove mglobe's car, since he signed up just to drive MSR for this event and not instruct, and he wanted a refresher on this track. I was about 1' early on a specific apex on lap 3 or 4, and pushed wide at track out...and in doing so, put the RR wheel (which was the loaded wheel in this corner) beyond the track out curbing. The far edge of the curbing is apparently very sharp, and it immediately deflated the RR tire.
I told Mike as soon as it happened that I would buy him a new tire. Now, as it turns out, he refused, in part because the tire I flattened had 25+ heat cycles on it. But I was prepared to buy him a brand new tire because my tiny mistake led to a flat.
That's how I roll: FLAT out....
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
09-19-2010, 11:44 PM
#42
Really? I'd assume the "you break it, you bought it" rule would be in effect. I know if I were a student letting an instructor drive my car and something happens, I'd be more than a little upset if they didn't step up to the plate and take care of whatever damage occurred...
This is a concrete example of what could happen, and did... Sure the instructor felt badly, but got over quite quickly since i never heard from him since, not a word, other than he sold his car and have not seen him since.
Never once did the instructor call me to find out what happened to the engine or how i was afterwards... Seriously no class....POS
After having the car towed to the mechanic, and getting him to perform an autopsy, the motor suffered from an intermix failure, when the coolant and oil mix. I also got computer printout on the engine diagnostic and saw than the motor had been over-reved before blowing up (forget the code, but its the really bad one). It cost me over $16,000 for a new motor, and getting my car back on the road one month later. Of course i also lost my 2 day DE event and as the club policy goes NO REFUND.... and the use of my car.
There is no way any instructor will ever drive my car, and if i ever chose to become an instructor, i will never drive a students car. If i really need to show him the line or the track i will take him in my car....
Hopefully this never happens to any of you.....
09-19-2010, 11:59 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Yep, exactly. Stuff happens and if you're driving, you need to be able to step up. If you can't, or won't, then you shouldn't be driving someone else's car.
I fail to see how driving the students car teaches them any more than taking 5-10 minutes to have all the novice drivers ride in the instructor cars, driven at a slow pace, to point out the line, corner stations, etc.
I fail to see how driving the students car teaches them any more than taking 5-10 minutes to have all the novice drivers ride in the instructor cars, driven at a slow pace, to point out the line, corner stations, etc.
09-20-2010, 12:42 AM
#44
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Randy we have been asked to do this from time to time. A person signs up for our DE and then wants to bring along his own instructor/coach with him. We have done this in the past but its on a case by case basis. We generally want to see the credentials of the coach and make sure we are satisfied that they are safe. We generally make sure they understand our polices.
However, this does bring up an interesting question about our liability and liability insurance. I am going to be posting some different threads sharing wiht you a paper I have drafted with PCA on our liability coverage, I think we are taking risk by permitting an outsider to come in and instruct one of our DE students. If you have a comfort zone about both the student and the coach then I think it passes my test but if you have no independent knowledge about the the people involved I think it could cause problems.
However, this does bring up an interesting question about our liability and liability insurance. I am going to be posting some different threads sharing wiht you a paper I have drafted with PCA on our liability coverage, I think we are taking risk by permitting an outsider to come in and instruct one of our DE students. If you have a comfort zone about both the student and the coach then I think it passes my test but if you have no independent knowledge about the the people involved I think it could cause problems.
So maybe all you need is an easy way to hire contract instructors to satisfy the liability issues?
09-20-2010, 09:57 AM
#45
Race Car
Frank, I ran with about 7 different groups this year and my outings with MOR were the best by far when it comes to pace of people in their respective run groups. My brother seconds this notion as well even from a lower run group perspective. Whatever you've got going now is working very well if you ask me. Perhaps it was the more open passing that we were doing in the advanced group but the most recent MO date was the best flowing traffic for a completely full DE that I've ever experienced.
As for instructors driving cars. As a potential future instructor it's not something I'd really want to do other than in a low speed training environment. Many good factors discussed above. I self insure at the track, I know my risk and limits of my car very well but I can think of several cars at the MOR events that I would not hop into simply because of the financial risks if something were to happen with me behind the wheel of a strange car. Even at 7-8/10ths stuff happens you can't control like fluid being down or mechanical failures that could cause an off.
Andy
As for instructors driving cars. As a potential future instructor it's not something I'd really want to do other than in a low speed training environment. Many good factors discussed above. I self insure at the track, I know my risk and limits of my car very well but I can think of several cars at the MOR events that I would not hop into simply because of the financial risks if something were to happen with me behind the wheel of a strange car. Even at 7-8/10ths stuff happens you can't control like fluid being down or mechanical failures that could cause an off.
Andy