va122

About the instructor driving the car...Back in the day I used to like it when the instructor would drive my car, I found it to be a great learning experience and I was able to "copy" the lap. However I do subscribe to the break it you bought it philosophy.

WHB Porsche

Instructor should drive first couple laps of a green student's first day. It's a lot easier to say "go here" than "go a little to the left of where you're going. No not that much. Back right a little. Yeah, kinda like that. Okay" over the course of 6 laps.

AllanJ

In my region we have a requirement that two different instructors need to sign off someone for advanced. As a student whose priority is learning, I really like that requirement. Helps to ensure the right people are in that group.

jittsl

As an instructor I usually ask my student if they would like me do a few laps demonstrating the line. I have never had one say no. I then head gently onto the track amongst other green students driving a car I know absolutely nothing about very gently. The point of the tour is to talk the student through the line, points of braking and acceleration. I have always found this very useful as I hope do most of my students. I also make it a habit to invite my student to do a session in my passenger seat. I treat this as an oportunity to demonstrate some of the things I have been talking about - smoothness, gentle inputs, consistency etc. I usually take these sessions relatively slowly ( say 7/10s ) as I do whenever I have a passenger. The point is not to impress or terrify it is to educate.

As the instructor, if the worst was to happen and I did something stupid and caused some damage to the car I would probably step up. I would imagine however that the likelihood of this happening at the much reduced pace I am driving is low. In the situation of a mechanical failure I would expect the owner to take responsibility.

dan212

Did this thread somehow shift topic? I thought it was about Run Group Advancement?

Let me throw in a different question. maybe Hijack the thread in a different way.. What about White Drivers??

Its always a matter of supply and demand for Green/Yellow drivers. Instructors are in short supply. But what about White drivers who would like some additional instruction? Sure the definition of how a white driver should be driving is reasonably clear, but once in white - its often impossible to get right seat instruction even though its clear that everyone at EVERY level needs help. White drivers may not need someone for the entire event, but a little bit goes a long way..

Schedules are tight and its hard for the most willing instructor to hop in for a ride between green/yellow sessions and Red (or even black) . Still, when I see former students now in white, I always tell them that I would be happy to take a ride with them (never mind the effect on my own schedule). I remember how hard it was for me to have someone take a ride with me when I was in white.

Some regions try to solve this with a "White Blitz".. Its a great idea when done right, but I wish they wouldn't call it that. The term "Blitz" is intimidating and makes people think they are being checked up on (which may be partly true, but don't say it)..

So I hop in, try to relax them and say, "hey I'm not checking up on you.. Its just that we know its not easy to find someone to ride in the right seat once you are in white and everyone needs some help now and then. Thats why I am here and I'm happy to ride with you and offer whatever help I can".. And I mean it....

I know it works when my "blitz" white driver asks me to take another ride with them when the realize I was riding along to help and not to "check up on them".

So what can we do to offer more support for white drivers?

sparks259

concur with jttsl.
first two laps are for DEMO purposes ONLY!
actually, most of my students when asked if they want me to do a third lap, say yes.
i have already driven a 23 minute demo for a student.
as for responsibility, first of all, the car is supposed to have undergone a tech inspection, of some sort, may vary by region.
as for an on track incident, while the demo rides are usually taken at 60% or so, stuff does happen, that is why pca has everyone sign those waivers before going on track.
iirc, instructors are blameless.
more to come............................

sparks259

on moving students up, nnjr and pda have feedback cards that are filled out by the instructor as to the performance of the student.
rarely during one season does the student have the same instructor; exposes the student to different teaching techniques and perspectives.
it should also be noted that the STUDENT also has a feed back card on the instructor----keeps everyone honest.
at nnjr, we have created a database of student with their driving experiences ( track days) in that database.
that along with verbal feedback from the instructors, being moved up in the middle of an event, and the ability to allow students to ask for check out rides to the next higher run group, gets it done for us.
bobby, correct me if i am wrong, but i beleive that is about the same as what pda does.
finally, years ago, i downloaded or copied somewhere a driving manual from the BMWCCA.
had a LOT of good stuff in it.
if i can find the address, i will pass it on.

todinlaw

That is my fault, I asked two different questions. As to the instructor driving student car, Our region has been reluctant to do due to liability issues. And some abuses by some instructors. However we are going to revisit the issue. this is what we do: for the D= Green student
first session first thing before track goes hot. is Track orientation. its helmets off in the car with the student at a slow relaxed pace to show them the track, the line, the flags. 15 min.

Then they get a classroom while instructors are on the track. then this last event we put the students out in the instructors cars for the instructors to take them out on the track at about 6 tenths in instructors car, instructor driving, this would show them the flow, brake points, shift points at something close to D run group speed.

I am just wondering what else will be gained by doing this in the student car vs. instructor car.

Excellent, this is good stuff. thanks for sharing.

Gary thank you this is the kind of Stuff we were looking for. Thank you.

flyingpenguin

Get more qualified/advanced instructors!

;-)

LSR PCA was mentioned earlier in this thread. They do a good job providing at least one advanced instructor to white / yellow students each weekend.

JP

Jack667

If a student has a really nice ride like a Ferrari or something, I'll ask if I can drove their car. I like to go about 9/10th with it, but if it breaks, I don't have the money to fix it. I'll offer to make it up with free coaching lessons though.
I like writing about this stuff on my bog, with pics.
GR

Gofishracing

NASA/ PDA- we put an Instructor in EVERY White car the first run. This gives us a way to take a snap shot of the drivers skills. We have more control on our pdadrivingschool.com web site which will be moving towards just using Nasaproracing.com. This causes conplications because there are people that Drive Flat out that should be moved to the Highest run group and sign themselves up as such on NASA. We also have Instructors out in each run group as observers / Monitors. When we get a report we respond accordingly. We have classroom reviews for all groups during the day. Students fill out Instructor evaluation forms and visa vera.

sig_a

Some "advanced" students drive safer and more accurately without an instructor in their car. The chatter through the headset often is more distracting than instructive, and can make a student unable to act in a relaxed and natural way. For a student to strike up a driving specific conversation with a high quality instructor often results in the instructor asking the student if he might ride along. Hard to turn down the request if the student is serious about advancing to a higher run group. I favor that approach.

paradisenb

On a side note regarding driver advancement; how do your regions deal with upper group drivers bringing personal coaches to your DEs? Can they come to your events, drive the student's car to lay down some benchmark laps then go out the student, etc.?

Edit - by coaches I mean current or retired professional drivers. Known entities.

jittsl

http://www.porschenet.com/JCMS/content/view/27/59/

The above link will take you to NER's advancement policies and checklists. The principle difference between NER and most other groups is that advancement beyond yellow requires the approval of BOTH an instructor and of the Chief Instructor (or his/her nominee). It is a bit of a pain for some people (particularly those who need to drive flat out and therefore must be moved to the fastest run group immediately) but it does help to ensure consistency.

As to the question of whether or not to use the student's or the instructor's car for demonstrations. As I stated above I usually do both. My thought is that driving the student's car helps to make the experience more real for the student. A trip in my car can be fun and can be educational but is not instantly transferred to the job of driving their own car. My car is set up as a track car and has "R" tires, most student's cars are not. Because of this difference I'm not sure that it is the same as showing them what their car should feel and sound like when driven by them. Even at touring pace I am giving them a fairly good indication of what I would like them to emulate in the first few sessions.

jittsl

The statement may be true in a very few cases but without an instructor in the car how do you ever advance? I do not think that great driving exists inside us and needs only seat time to come out.