333pg333

Been reading Ross Bentley's well respected book Speed Secrets and it has me wondering on a few points. Clearly his mantra is 'Smooth'. At the end of the book one of the things he touches on is braking with a graph/diagram showing how the amateur will start earlier, not brake to 100%, and finish too early without proper trailing. He backs this up by saying you should either be on the brakes 100%, throttle 100%, or on throttle maintenance awaiting full throttle. As this is something we've all heard I wondered on how we translate his style into these basic tenets? He says throughout the book that he wants you to be smooth and balanced and squeeze on rather than rapid jerky movements. So it would seem a fine line between hard on and off the brake, clutch, and throttle and his smooth squeezing approach while still being either 100% on the aforementioned or in transition mode...if you see what I'm saying / asking?

Another thing that has me slightly perplexed. I feel like my braking cadence might in some cases be different between e.g. coming into a hard braking zone that I'm able to stay in the same gear vs one where I have to heel and toe a few times coming down through the gears. In some of these rowing-down-the-gears-coming-into-certain-corners moments, it seems that I don't want to be at 100% threshold braking. I want to sort of wash off a bit of speed and be in the correct gear to
'enter-go through-exit' that corner rather than really squeeze the living daylights out of the middle pedal. Perhaps it demonstrates a case for braking harder and shorter and skipping a change through the gear sequence?

E.g. Coming through the fastest corner on our local track we have hit just about 150mph down the preceding straight, touch the brakes at around the 100mtr marker, drive through at about 120mph and accelerate again for a few hundred meters before coming into a double apex off camber 190o corner. (Tricky corner!) We come off the throttle at about the 100 marker again and then go from 5th into 3rd into 2nd but I'm not standing on the brakes at any point. Would Mr Bentley (and others) suggest to go deeper before braking harder and then straight into 2nd? I am just sort of scratching my head trying to reconcile this information. I feel as if I mustn't be doing things correctly as I'm sure I don't get to 100% threshold on all my braking moments. Guess I've got the smooth part happening perhaps without enough retardation...but then why wash off more speed than is necessary? He says the first step with many amateurs is late braking, then they improve to light braking and then to late-light braking...however I can't grasp how light braking and 100% hard/fast braking work into this method.

What am I missing?

sleder

concern yourself with where you are coming off the brakes, not going on them. once you are aware of that, you can be more precise as to where to initiate braking.

TeamDrugMoney

Scott, I can still hear your echo telling me this! Still working on it though, LOL!

sleder

ongoing pursuit of perfection! You have the focus and clarity to make it happen.
Hope to see you soon.

mdrums

333, I read Ross' books too and I've been told to brake like Ross explains and then I've been told I am not coming onto the brake hard enough and I need to spike the brakes harder. Also there are some turns that you float into so you are not on the brakes or throttle.

I always thought or understood that you brake really hard 1st but you do not stab the brakes you squeez into the hard braking but do it fast. I was also understanding that you are either 100% into the brake or on the throttle.

I had some coaching from Hurley Haywod, Chris Hall and Cass Whitehead at Barber at a Masters class. These guys said I was squeezing the brakes (true) and I need to stab/shock the brake really hard to disapate speed and brake heat very fast and then trail out of the brakes. They also pointed out some turns at Barber and I saw a video on this with Patrick Long where you float the car into.

So lately I've not been trying to over think all of this. I have my mental notes and I just drive the car and keep it in balance. I do plan on having some private instruction later this year with Seth Thomas and Chris Hall at Sebring.

himself

You can try to generalize what Ross is saying, but unfortunately, the answer is "it depends." Once you have the tools, you have to sort through the bag to figure out which one makes you fastest through a corner. What works for one car, one driver, one corner, one setup, etc., may not translate to anything else.

-td

sleder

touche'
Spot on

333pg333

I guess that's what I figured, but sometimes you see / hear these things and they appear to be virtual 'absolutes'. I have to agree with Mike above that it can be somewhat confusing for those of us who want to keep learning / improving. Be smooth, don't jerk, squeeze on, don't overbrake, don't brake too early, 100% braking N-O-W....
I think the one thing that can help clear this up is strong and solid datalogging. At least you can go out and try a number of different ways and find out the fastest method. I'm just entering this realm and while it's a bit overwhelming, I can see how beneficial this info will become.

TeamDrugMoney

+1 The data can be soooo helpful but also so intimidating at the same time to sort through. It gets easier with time, trust me on that. There are several good books out there. If you need info on them, let me know

Veloce Raptor

The most relevant post in this thread.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

333pg333

VR has seen this already but possibly risking some boredom, here is the track I mentioned. A somewhat comical video as you will see...and don't think I haven't heard all the jokes about illegal weight re distributing devices....you'll see.
I know there are a few driving mistakes too. Feel free to point them out. Interestingly while finishing the book last night he touches on the subject of setup and that it's not always the car's fault. On this day I had a bit of turn in understeer however I could have dealt with it a bit better with some more LFB and trailing although didn't suffer too badly. Oh, and I don't think you guys come across EVOs so much in the US but out here they are very much the car de jour for people wanting relatively cheap fast cars. Easy to modify and this one's a fully built-c/f body parts modified example up around the 400hp mark so I'm reliably told.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNHjD3Da5RU

jgrant

I'm lucky enough to manage the Grand Am team that Ross drives for. For the last 2 years, he's been one of our drivers at the 24 Hours of Daytona, and my job has been dealing with the data acquisition.

We recently had a Gentleman Driver on our team, and I got a chance to compare his data along with Ross' data, and watch as Ross provided some guidance to our other driver. The resulting changes to the other driver's performance was amazing to watch.

When you see that data, it really does make sense to what he's saying. Probably the "simplest" braking scenario is turn 1 at Daytona, as that's where the difference between the two drivers was the most pronounced, and the improvement the most significant.

One of the things that blew me away was the absolute consistency that Ross showed. It was almost the same data, every time.

I'll send Ross a quick email and see if he'd mind me posting a few Motec graphs so you can see. Might take a day or 2 as I dig it out, but it really is interesting to see.

333pg333

Hey thanks very much JG. That's very kind and thank Ross for any input to this. Clearly having direct contact with him vs reading and interpreting (perhaps incorrectly?) his words can have some variance. I'm sure he's a busy man but it would be great if you could persuade him to come onto this forum once in a while, although I won't hold you to that.

If you could show us the differences you speak of through T1 at Daytona and how the other driver was able to make the changes, that would be a great example.

333pg333

By all means let me know of these books re data logging. I imagine that there would be some product dependent information, but also a lot of generic info that translates across the various brands. Thanks.

Circuit Motorsports

Data Power Buddy Fey
Competition Car Data Logging Simon McBeath
The Competitions CAr Data Logging Manual Graham Templeman
Analaysis Technique........ Jorge Segers (SAE book)