greenhorn`s silly post-event questions :)
08-05-2010, 10:36 AM
#166
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sorry, missed this post. you are totally right. there are bad habits, and plenty.
aside from me playing along with folks in this thread if we speak seriously enough, well, what you say here is exactly same my instructor was telling me.
and there is more I would want I would like to discuss too, as it was first event and all impressions are still quite fresh enough.
so speaking of bad habits - especially at first day pretty much all braking/throttling in digital mode - full gas, then full brakes, threshold into every single corner, full gas, etc, with instructor screaming on top of her lungs at me.
it went away slowly but i think it will take heck of time to fix that habit permanently.
other thing what was damn difficult to get into - it took whole day to learn the line as speed is much faster and there were no visibility, i mean, - at auto-x it is a flat field, so i look at 3-4 elements at same time and prepare myself. so it is essentially more elements to work with but way more time to get prepared. at NHMS i had very bad 2 first sessions on first day going either too early or too late as my brain simply did not work at proper speed. then it took an enormous effort to get to that speed. i did not expect that. still, instructor was able to fix that forcing me to simply start going extremely slow (2nd gear all around) around the track and it all came to proper places slowly enough then we started to speed up.
my overall impressions are quite mixed anyway. it is definitely fun thing to do, but i still have mixed feelings, especially as you progress and start either to catch up with other people cars (and it is where folks here will start their jokes again ) - but what i say is I am used to be alone on a course and I like it. may be i am just getting older but only element of competition left in me is for my car and I. I like to see how my course time evolves and improves but apparently i do not like anymore to actually race in a $90K car and it wsa a surprise to me on some level.
I do not like a single bit apparently when somebody's car starts suddenly braking ahead of me where on my line i am slowly increasing throttle input and then I have to brake hard so i would not hit him plus real problem was that when I put 100% of my concentration on the line itself I was not physically able to control my mirrors and traffic ahead and it sucked a lot.
it was something i really did not expect of myself to react to it so bad as i have no problems in street traffic at all. but especially on a second day when line started to come to me more or less consistently i found it to ruin most of my fun on that day - instead of driving my car i was almost constantly thinking of what to do so car don`t get hit or I would not hit somebody. I find it so permanently different from auto-x events honestly. I just ended up pulling out from staging line aside and waiting for other cars to go then starting driving alone, but when i would catch up on them and like i said on one lap i was able to pass most of them but level of stress it gives is really not nearly compensating any sense of accomplishment, I am not sure what I am trying to say here really, like I said, mixed feelings. may be this stuff is simply not for me, but I wanted to share it, for whatever reaction it may cause here.
may be i just need to follow other people route and buy something cheap and simple so i would not be afraid to run it. may be NHMS is a very small track. i do not know, i have no experience to compare it to anything else.
aside from me playing along with folks in this thread if we speak seriously enough, well, what you say here is exactly same my instructor was telling me.
and there is more I would want I would like to discuss too, as it was first event and all impressions are still quite fresh enough.
so speaking of bad habits - especially at first day pretty much all braking/throttling in digital mode - full gas, then full brakes, threshold into every single corner, full gas, etc, with instructor screaming on top of her lungs at me.
it went away slowly but i think it will take heck of time to fix that habit permanently. other thing what was damn difficult to get into - it took whole day to learn the line as speed is much faster and there were no visibility, i mean, - at auto-x it is a flat field, so i look at 3-4 elements at same time and prepare myself. so it is essentially more elements to work with but way more time to get prepared. at NHMS i had very bad 2 first sessions on first day going either too early or too late as my brain simply did not work at proper speed. then it took an enormous effort to get to that speed. i did not expect that. still, instructor was able to fix that forcing me to simply start going extremely slow (2nd gear all around) around the track and it all came to proper places slowly enough then we started to speed up.
my overall impressions are quite mixed anyway. it is definitely fun thing to do, but i still have mixed feelings, especially as you progress and start either to catch up with other people cars (and it is where folks here will start their jokes again
) - but what i say is I am used to be alone on a course and I like it. may be i am just getting older but only element of competition left in me is for my car and I. I like to see how my course time evolves and improves but apparently i do not like anymore to actually race in a $90K car and it wsa a surprise to me on some level. I do not like a single bit apparently when somebody's car starts suddenly braking ahead of me where on my line i am slowly increasing throttle input and then I have to brake hard so i would not hit him plus real problem was that when I put 100% of my concentration on the line itself I was not physically able to control my mirrors and traffic ahead and it sucked a lot.
it was something i really did not expect of myself to react to it so bad as i have no problems in street traffic at all. but especially on a second day when line started to come to me more or less consistently i found it to ruin most of my fun on that day - instead of driving my car i was almost constantly thinking of what to do so car don`t get hit or I would not hit somebody. I find it so permanently different from auto-x events honestly. I just ended up pulling out from staging line aside and waiting for other cars to go then starting driving alone, but when i would catch up on them and like i said on one lap i was able to pass most of them but level of stress it gives is really not nearly compensating any sense of accomplishment, I am not sure what I am trying to say here really, like I said, mixed feelings. may be this stuff is simply not for me, but I wanted to share it, for whatever reaction it may cause here.
may be i just need to follow other people route and buy something cheap and simple so i would not be afraid to run it. may be NHMS is a very small track. i do not know, i have no experience to compare it to anything else.
Yes, NHMS is a hard track to get a rhythm on, but your experiences would have likely been similar at longer tracks (like Watkins Glen).
I'll bet you would very much like a more basic car; less hp and suspension would be very rewarding.
The reward is in the journey, not the destination.
08-05-2010, 10:49 AM
#167
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Very well thought out and expressed here. Good job.
Yes, NHMS is a hard track to get a rhythm on, but your experiences would have likely been similar at longer tracks (like Watkins Glen).
I'll bet you would very much like a more basic car; less hp and suspension would be very rewarding.
The reward is in the journey, not the destination.
Yes, NHMS is a hard track to get a rhythm on, but your experiences would have likely been similar at longer tracks (like Watkins Glen).
I'll bet you would very much like a more basic car; less hp and suspension would be very rewarding.
The reward is in the journey, not the destination.
WG is a bigger track but they do put more cars on it at same time so overall possibility to get into middle of a 'train' is pretty much the same, i would guess?
i did not feel overly bad on second day with most of NHMS turns and what I mean by that is - i was able to comprehend what is supposed to be done there and I was able to say properly done line from a mistake (which is imho a heck of accomplishment for a first attempt ever at DE as i remember how long it took me to get there at auto-x) - but 1-2b section was a problem every time, particularly approach to 1 then transition from 1 to 2a.
well, may be i will force myself to repeat all this one more time this year and will get a 'feel' of it to some degree, but as of right now - it is not there and there are no signs of an 'enlightenment'
08-05-2010, 10:55 AM
#168
Rennlist
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Now we have something to talk about. As an old autocrosser, I was absolutely lost the first time I got on the track, and that was a simple one too (Pocono). 12 years of autocrossing gave me the skills to control the car, but not the knowledge to drive on the track. Concentrating on the line and the fundamentals is what brought it together quickly for me.
#1) learn the line first so that you are comfortable with the track before you try and go fast
#2) learn how to come off the corner at full throttle
#3) use that to learn exactly where you can apex so that you can get on the gas early
#4) use that to learn where you need to transition from the brakes to the gas to make your apex
#5) use that to know where you want to get off the brakes, and at what speed
#6) use that to know where to start braking
Easy-peasy.
#1) learn the line first so that you are comfortable with the track before you try and go fast
#2) learn how to come off the corner at full throttle
#3) use that to learn exactly where you can apex so that you can get on the gas early
#4) use that to learn where you need to transition from the brakes to the gas to make your apex
#5) use that to know where you want to get off the brakes, and at what speed
#6) use that to know where to start braking
Easy-peasy.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
08-05-2010, 11:06 AM
#169
Race Director
I started my track time in autocross. Autocross and track are very different. The use the same basic skill set, but the way you approach them is very differet.
Autocross is maxium attack all the time. You need to be very aggressive all the time. You have no room or time work up to your speed. You go full bore right away and muscle the car around the course. If you knock over a few cones or spin in the process so be it.
Track is different. For one the track rarely changes. Speeds are much greater and run off is much less considering the added momenutum. Plus you have alot more time on track to develop a rhythm.
So your approach to the track needs to be slower are more measured. It is not about max attack and throwing the car around. It is about flowing the car from corner to corner. If you have force the car any place on the track you are not doing it right. A good smooth drive means the car naturally moves right where the driver wants it. The reason you need to be smooth is being rough and tossing the upsets the balance and that cause a loss of grip. Now it is possible for advanced drivers to toss a car around, but it not the same as what you do in autocross. It takes time to develop that skill and feel and of course you don't do that in every corner. You have never driven Miller motorsport park in Utah, but the first 5 corners are all high speed flat out or nearly flat out turns. To do them right you need to be very smooth. If not you will be flying off track in cloud of dust. No man handling there, it is able flowing the car from one corner to the next.
Now when it comes to traffic. That is just a part of track driving. Sometimes they slow you down other times they just distract you. A good track drivers know when to adjust their driving around traffic and when the car front will not do anything to impead your flow. Racing in fact only partially about driving the line and mostly about traffic management. In any event a good track driver knows what he wants to do with his own car and can see and predict what other drivers will do with their cars. Thus when the driver infront losses it you see it and can react before you get yourself in trouble.
Track driving is harder than autocrossing a high, but not championship level. (The champion autocross have amazing skillls). The reason is not only do you need the basic drving skills, but even in passing controlled DE you need to work in and around traffic. So mental capacity needs to used not just for your car, but is tied up with cars around you.
This is one reason DE greenhorns are taugh the line a lower pace than in an autocross. There is alot going on on track an pushing too hard too early on will not allow you to absorb the events around you. This will cause you to be a danger to yourself and those around you.
Remember the luxury you have in DE.. The next time you go to that track it will be the same as last time. No need to re-learn the track. You just pick up where you left off and then can go further.
Autocross is maxium attack all the time. You need to be very aggressive all the time. You have no room or time work up to your speed. You go full bore right away and muscle the car around the course. If you knock over a few cones or spin in the process so be it.
Track is different. For one the track rarely changes. Speeds are much greater and run off is much less considering the added momenutum. Plus you have alot more time on track to develop a rhythm.
So your approach to the track needs to be slower are more measured. It is not about max attack and throwing the car around. It is about flowing the car from corner to corner. If you have force the car any place on the track you are not doing it right. A good smooth drive means the car naturally moves right where the driver wants it. The reason you need to be smooth is being rough and tossing the upsets the balance and that cause a loss of grip. Now it is possible for advanced drivers to toss a car around, but it not the same as what you do in autocross. It takes time to develop that skill and feel and of course you don't do that in every corner. You have never driven Miller motorsport park in Utah, but the first 5 corners are all high speed flat out or nearly flat out turns. To do them right you need to be very smooth. If not you will be flying off track in cloud of dust. No man handling there, it is able flowing the car from one corner to the next.
Now when it comes to traffic. That is just a part of track driving. Sometimes they slow you down other times they just distract you. A good track drivers know when to adjust their driving around traffic and when the car front will not do anything to impead your flow. Racing in fact only partially about driving the line and mostly about traffic management. In any event a good track driver knows what he wants to do with his own car and can see and predict what other drivers will do with their cars. Thus when the driver infront losses it you see it and can react before you get yourself in trouble.
Track driving is harder than autocrossing a high, but not championship level. (The champion autocross have amazing skillls). The reason is not only do you need the basic drving skills, but even in passing controlled DE you need to work in and around traffic. So mental capacity needs to used not just for your car, but is tied up with cars around you.
This is one reason DE greenhorns are taugh the line a lower pace than in an autocross. There is alot going on on track an pushing too hard too early on will not allow you to absorb the events around you. This will cause you to be a danger to yourself and those around you.
Remember the luxury you have in DE.. The next time you go to that track it will be the same as last time. No need to re-learn the track. You just pick up where you left off and then can go further.
08-05-2010, 11:09 AM
#170
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Now we have something to talk about. As an old autocrosser, I was absolutely lost the first time I got on the track, and that was a simple one too (Pocono). 12 years of autocrossing gave me the skills to control the car, but not the knowledge to drive on the track. Concentrating on the line and the fundamentals is what brought it together quickly for me.
#1) learn the line first so that you are comfortable with the track before you try and go fast
#2) learn how to come off the corner at full throttle
#3) use that to learn exactly where you can apex so that you can get on the gas early
#4) use that to learn where you need to transition from the brakes to the gas to make your apex
#5) use that to know where you want to get off the brakes, and at what speed
#6) use that to know where to start braking
Easy-peasy.
#1) learn the line first so that you are comfortable with the track before you try and go fast
#2) learn how to come off the corner at full throttle
#3) use that to learn exactly where you can apex so that you can get on the gas early
#4) use that to learn where you need to transition from the brakes to the gas to make your apex
#5) use that to know where you want to get off the brakes, and at what speed
#6) use that to know where to start braking
Easy-peasy.
what i found i was doing on first session - as my car has ABS i apparently got a 'threshold braking' habit of slamming brakes to the floor nearly before limit where ABS kicks in then releasing out. works fine for auto-x actually, it makes me able to approach efficiently without cruising to exact point of where I do turn in, but apparently on a track it is not supposed to be done so
, as for some reason instructor got veery unhappy looking at wall in turn 3 where i did it... 
so, approach at full speed from straight to a corner is something to re-learn completely and I am fine with it. will get there, may be.
if it makes any sense or not, on your points -
1) was a heck of a hard job,
2) was not too bad as I did it and did not come close to spin in any corner but essentially stopped even trying to go uphill from corner 3 on 2nd gear and my softronic flash gives such a kick at 4.5pm that it did not feel nearly safe to do going uphill as i was loosing my *** there, so i gave up 3rd corner and was doing it on third gear only,
3) came more or less together when line was finally memorized, so i could see how to adjust,
4) was tough and 0 progress so far after 2 days,
5) also so-so, not much, i cannot verbalize that,
6) understood mentally but in combination with lack of 4) - not much progress.
and I think you forgot 7) - simply learn how to downshift. up****s were not such big of problem but as at auto-x in my car at least i practically never ever go out of 2nd gear - down shifting was non-existent. i will try to look at my pedals and practice it more, but, something tells me that it will unlikely to improve any time soon.
08-05-2010, 11:16 AM
#171
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
on a part i left, i thin it is a luxury but at a same time, i believe it is also a downside too to some degree, when you hit a personal limit of a learning curve and 'enlightenment' does not come. but i am overthinking it all most likely anyway.
08-05-2010, 11:16 AM
#172
Rennlist Member
So, this whole mess starts with (pretty much everyone) telling you that you are focusing on the wrong things and here we are right back with people telling you the correct things to focus on. Re-read my 1st response 100 pages back, it simply said to learn the important things which, looking at the list you just posted, you obviously haven't (and are not expected to at your 1st event!).. Stick with it, but try different tracks. NH is not one of the better ones though I know it's close to you.
08-05-2010, 11:21 AM
#173
Race Car
here's one of the best explanations of HPDE I've found. (kudo's to REDLINEMAN)
http://redlinerennsport.com/DriversEdEd.html
IMO, it should be required reading for all newbies..
http://redlinerennsport.com/DriversEdEd.html
IMO, it should be required reading for all newbies..
08-05-2010, 11:25 AM
#174
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
So, this whole mess starts with (pretty much everyone) telling you that you are focusing on the wrong things and here we are right back with people telling you the correct things to focus on. Re-read my 1st response 100 pages back, it simply said to learn the important things which, looking at the list you just posted, you obviously haven't (and are not expected to at your 1st event!)..
i was focusing on almost
all the right things during those days as it was told by my instructor about them, so it was no need to preach same stuff here after it was already communicated during driving sessions by a person who was personally responsible for that job. plus i just had a chance for great time just to mess with most of you preachers guys as i like to troll and I openly admit it.
like it is in life - never assume anything. i don`t.
08-05-2010, 11:31 AM
#176
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
here's one of the best explanations of HPDE I've found. (kudo's to REDLINEMAN)
http://redlinerennsport.com/DriversEdEd.html
IMO, it should be required reading for all newbies..
http://redlinerennsport.com/DriversEdEd.html
IMO, it should be required reading for all newbies..
like you can read about heel and toe concept whole day but when in a corner you leg simply cannot find gas pedal for unknown reason while at a parking lot you were able to hit it every single time - it is just damn frustrating.
08-05-2010, 11:33 AM
#177
Rennlist Member
i was focusing on almost all the right things during those days as it was told by my instructor about them, so it was no need to preach same stuff here after it was already communicated during driving sessions by a person who was personally responsible for that job.
plus i just had a chance for great time just to mess with most of you preachers guys as i like to troll and I openly admit it.
like it is in life - never assume anything. i don`t.
all the right things during those days as it was told by my instructor about them, so it was no need to preach same stuff here after it was already communicated during driving sessions by a person who was personally responsible for that job. plus i just had a chance for great time just to mess with most of you preachers guys as i like to troll and I openly admit it.
like it is in life - never assume anything. i don`t.
BTW, your car was worth $90K in 2006, it's a $40K car now so don't fret too much about it.
08-05-2010, 11:34 AM
#178
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
08-05-2010, 11:35 AM
#179
here's one of the best explanations of HPDE I've found. (kudo's to REDLINEMAN)
http://redlinerennsport.com/DriversEdEd.html
IMO, it should be required reading for all newbies..
http://redlinerennsport.com/DriversEdEd.html
IMO, it should be required reading for all newbies..
Common Misconceptions
R-COMPOUND TIRES WILL MAKE ME A BETTER DRIVER
WRONG !
The use of such tires is widespread among performance driving enthusiasts. If you have been contemplating such a purchase, consider this: This is Driver's Education, and you are here to learn the art of car control, not necessarily how to drive fast. It is much easier to access the limits of a set of street tires than the stickier variety, so one learns more progressively and at a more reasonable speed. Knowing what your car will do, what it feels like, and what action to take when it moves around is obviously very important. While the cornering and braking limits of the sticky tires are much higher, they will allow you to "get away" with improper technique and sloppy driving initially, but are MUCH less forgiving at their higher limits. You may find yourself in over your head; going far too fast to correct for a moment that you were not at all expecting. Really learning to drive well means being prepared with the proper REFLEXIVE RESPONSE. Street tires offer the best way of learning these responses and ingraining them in your reflexive memory through consistency and repetition. Start at the beginning!
08-05-2010, 11:35 AM
#180
Rennlist Member
