IcemanG17

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ec-racing.html

Given the success of spec944-e30-miata...and the obvious depreciation of 928's, and their on track potential for minimal investment....it might make a fun spec class...

For example my "lemons" racer could be replicated for $5k easy & is a reliable 2:06.9 car at Thunderhill....with a "new" racer driving (me)....

I just think for the price of Spec944 you could have much more performance in a 928? So how much does it cost to build a competitive spec944?

M758

Brian,
A 944 spec costs 7k to 12k to build/buy as competitive race car. The cost range depends on how much you do yourself and things like how much you put into race seats, cage and paint work. This cost has been proven out over 8 years, over 100 944 builds and 100% competitive builds as well.


As for 928 spec I don't think it could be done for less than that. Sure you build yours cheap, but you have not fully built it even for a spec class. When it comes to a proper 100% built to limit of the rules car costs will go up even if the lap times change only a small bit. It is just the nature of pushing the rules to limits.

On top of that you need to develop a rule set that allows for 3 things. Large population of donor cars, Competitive equality, reasonable costs for both build and operation. Looks like you are running 17" aftermarket wheels. These are nice pieces, but will cost $$$$ and you will need to find a way to limit them. 944 spec wheels cost $200 a set and most racers have at least 2 or may be 3 sets. We also run a low priced 15 wheel.

So these are somethings to consider.

Greg Phillips

Too many variations to build a reasonable SPEC.

Early 2 valve motors, S 2 valve motors, 5 liter S , S4 and GTS motors over the 17 years,
Not counting the changes in brakes, ABS and suspension over the years. There is also the high proportion of automatics vs manuals.

You could try to limit the spec to a few specific years, 83-84 or 85-86 or S4 only but it is complicated.

Greg

Sterling Doc

928's are allowed in 944 Cup, and no one has found them to be a cost effective option there. Power and weight are directly proportional to consumables cost, and the 928 has lots of both. Fun idea in theory, but not practical for the reasons outlined above.

JR944

A stripped 928 with most electrical components removed is a fantastic track toy. IMO, not nearly enough available as donor/parts cars to make a succesful racing class. NASA GTS is a great idea for anyone wanting to race such a car.

mark kibort

yeah, I think Brian was talkng about early 2 valve and S motors (all around 220 to 240 rated Hp)
the euro 2 valve engines, along with the 4 valve engines would be way too hard to control and expensive for this target idea.

I think you could run an early 928 as Brian is and I had run for many years, sucessfully against spec 944s. But as was mentioned, push the rules and suddenly, this car would be a little faster than even Brian is seeing now. His rims are cheapo 8s, there is nothing that special with the suspension, and its just gutted. The ONLY mod is a set of headers but there are cheaper alternatives to that as well. I ran a car as fast as brian that had stock manifolds and an aftermarket cat with 200ccs less engine (old 4.5L) but had some big wheels and tires on it. (and real tiny brakes). Its a great platform and fun to drive too. parts are relatively cheap and easy to find. Im sure there are a few beat up 928s in most every city across america. But, no where near the quanities available as the 944.

interesting.

Brian, start running GTS2 and lets see how you do! You never know. it could catch on.

IcemanG17

MK
thats the plan......probably next season......if I can get a good showing in GTS2 with the Estate and its automatic...it could encourage others to build a 928...which would be great!!

M758

I think numbers are the real killer.

I seem to think of 25,000 928's made of all types. I think they made 25,000 944's in 1984 alone.

IcemanG17

its actually closer to 60,000...typically around 5000 per year in the early years..... But I would guess the survival rate of 928's is quite a bit higher than the 944 too but still nowhere close to 944 production

but the 928 does have many features the 944 doesn't...true coil over suspension, bigger brakes, V8 torque, aluminum body panels, stiffer body, etc....these little things all add up quickly on track....

IcemanG17

$7-12k for build a Spec 944 seems about right.....I DO think I could easily replicate a 5 speed LSD 928 built to GTS2 specs for that price...no doubt in my mind....that should be faster than my "estate"...I can think of 3-4 "donors" locally I could source in a matter of days..... Really any 928 will work...even the 4.5L CIS engines can produce 200whp with simple exhaust mods....the extra benefit is the early cars are lighter too...but do have the tiny brakes (tiny by 928 standards anyway).... with a good driver it could easily be a very competitive GTS2 car.....just looking at my times, GTS2 times and Spec944 times...

mooty

GTC1, 2, 3, 4, 5 are all spec cars
SM
BSR
SPEC 944
SPEC 928
SPEC E30
SPEC E36

seems to be way too many spec racing going on....and most of the have very small grid... maybe i am missing something.
maybe we should all concentrate on ONE platform instead of keep coming up with new rules, new spec series and new etcetcetc

mark kibort

I know, huh!

Everyone a winner!! like my kids kindergarden, ALMS, and now club racing. what has the world turned into. Obamaland!!

M758

That is a problem. In 944 spec we run one engine displacement at 1 weight. Yet I still get guys arguing about the weight of 15x7 cookie cutters vs 15x7 phone dials. I gut guys arguing about the 10.2:compression 88 motor vs 9.5:1 83-87 motor. I get guys complaining that the 86 and later cars a harder to get to class min weight of 2600lbs for all cars.

Point is I see alot of complaning about stuff that make not difference on track and we have years of data to show that. 944 spec is reasonable tight spec. Not perfect, but tight enough to minimize performance differences, but loose enough to allow some room to adjust the car to you needs and also allow enoough donor cars.


The problem is if you allow too many different 928's the spec will never be equal and you will naturally fine on year or combination is the fastest. Sure you could slap it down weith a weight penalty, but weight really is a crude way of balancing performance. That leads to cars stronger in places on a track vs others or better at some tracks that others. Things like this dilute the competitive playing field and tend to drive up costs.

The other thing is who wants to race a 4 speed auto? I can tell you that I don't. So then you need to fine a 5spd car. How many of those are out there? And if you allow auto's what is the right performance balance vs a 5 spd car? Seems to be me very complex to create balanced spec and also have a large enough field of donor cars.

Look run the 928 in GTS and have fun. If you find 3-4 more guys to build similar cars call it a sucess and enjoy it.

mark kibort

thats not true. Its almost identical to the 911 spec series that is going on. you dont allow the 993s or the prior year with the higher performance, they limit those to the '84ish range of 911s and surrounding years and regulate mods based on performance. In otherwords, the spec 928 would have to be the 84US model year and older. (similar to spec 911). that way, the variants are only 2. 84US 928s, which are the same down to 1983, and then the 79 to 82 928s that had the smaller 4.5L engine. (80-82 would be at a disadvantage due to Ljet injection, were that same injection is ok on the 4.7 for the '84s)
All these cars are capable of making 220rwhp in top tune and not much more.
auto vs stick, wont matter much for the width of gears and HP curves. the early cars would upgrade brakes to later years, which are perfectly fine as Brian and I have found, even with 50% more power than this platform will bring with mods allowed. besides the brake mods, not much has to be done except a set of headers and exhaust.

its a very cool idea, and the car would be fun, depndable and cheap to build and race as I have done for the last 15 years with multiple car plaforms and chassis.

my free 928 below. 220rwhp possibly, 1979, all i did was put a timing belt on this car, bolt on a 3" exhaust from the midas shop with a cat, and borrowed some wheels and tires. (and bolt on a street sport suspension) it ran 2:10 at thunderhill in its first race against the BMW boys. It was free + the things mentioned and nothing else! try that with your 944s. I dont think you can do it as cheaply and certainly, most importantly, it sounds better!

mk

M758

Mark,
A 944 spec car is a old 944 with a stripped interior , a bolt on street suspension, and cheap DE tires on stock wheels. If you are talking mechanical relablility 944 NA and 928 has the same basic motor. This means both engines need to worry about the t-belt and rod bearings.


944 spec track records at Thunderhill.

Thunderhill (Bypass)
6 Bill Pennock 2:10.298 03/11/2007

Thunderhill (Cyclone)
30 Richard Lofgren 2:10.028 03/09/2009

Thunderhill (Reverse Direction)
400 Sidney Lee 2:12.877 05/23/2010