ckdc

Hey Guys-

I posted my accident summary in an earlier HANS thread but will add it here. I broke my neck, C2, in a one car incident at Summit Point in 2008. I had a 5 point harness, and roll hoop in the back, no HANS and a foam collar. I think neck injuries side to side are a risk factor beyond what HANS can do. I also don't know if the foam collar aided or aggravated the seriousness of my injury, but I understand them to only offer support, and are not designed to add safety.

I went off the outside of turn 8, a slight left hand kink with a rumble strip. As I crested the strip turning slight left the passenger side continued to rotate as the rear lost grip and I started to go backwards off the left side of the track in the grass at about 60 mph. As I was sliding backwards/sideways I had turned my head to the right to see if I was going to clear the wall. I remember impacting the wall first with the front then slapping the side when my head was still turned to the right. I'm pretty sure my head rotated horizontally far enough (ear to shoulder is correct) that my helmet hit the passenger seat which, to this day, seems almost impossible when I'm strapped in, but it def hit something. I heard the crack inside my helmet (eerie) but it just sounded like my neck cracking like you might experience occasionally.

I just remember the impact was loud as **** and after I walked off the track I was having an odd feeling when I tried to swallow. That's when I sat down in a spectators car and he held my neck til the EMT got there.

I fractured both of my facets on C2 which are the rear wishbone shaped extensions that surround the spinal cord. They are not that functional in general, and sometimes are removed completely in patients with chronic disc pain and inflammation

I think HANS is designed to protect from a basilar skull fracture which is when the base of the skull that connects to C1 fractures when the skull is hyperextended forward-

HANS summary and racer deaths listed here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilar_skull_fracture

I had a full recovery and have some stiffness and minor pain, but only had to wear a neck brace for 3 months. Got lucky and will only go back out with a full halo seat and HANS.

paradisenb

LOL. I don't see the relevance either. I believe a race suit and a appropriate H&N system should always be worn when driving on track (left or right seat).

kurt M

One thought might be that fires in stock to mostly student DE cars are very rare. Fire suits are insulation, that is 100% how they work. Wearing insulation in high summer temps without advantage of a cool suit, which your student would not have, might increase the chance of heat stroke or at least cause thermal brain fade and loss of situation control far more than the chance of being in a student car fire. Drink fluids all you want, if you inhibit your internal cooling system via insulation your core temp will rise. Even a small rise can have profound results.

Does a 3 point belt setup produce the conditions that would require a H&N system? Is the added weight of the helmet alone enough to warrant H&N regardless of how well the body is restrained? From the little I have seen the body and head act very differently depending on the belt systems. I am sure this info is out there and it would be interesting to know.

gbaker

Mike,

Do the cars in which you instruct have air bags? If so, you're better off relying on the bag.

himself

I almost always take mine off before I jump in a students car. Although unlikely, anything hitting the passenger door might be amplified with a HANS device just floating on your shoulders.

When I remember, I put it in my car. But many times, I forget and simply unsnapp it and leave it at the grid. Worst case, if I am pressed for time, I unsnap it when I get in the students car and wedge it, hold it, or put it behind the seat.

[edit: as a funny aside, I once saw a student [not one of mine] wearing a travel neck pillow under his helmet. Yup, the kind you use when you sleep on a plane.]

-td

Veloce Raptor

Mike, FWIW, I always remove mine if I have to hop into a 3 point belt car.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mglobe

Most of the time yes.

Circuit Motorsports

But, but, but keep reading further.....



<---Agrees with ltc that 3pt and HANS is not really going to be helpful.

todinlaw

Fair question. If they have a car with 3 point belts I don't want to jump in the car with a Hans device and a fire suit and freak them out. If they are to the point that they are concerned about safety and they have bought racing seats and harnesses I would wear the hans, and maybe my fire suit but i find that its a bit intimidating so I don't normally. If I am instructing someone who races, then I get the suit as safety is never enough, just don't want to overwhelm a beginner. 'Hows that"

Bryan Watts

Fair enough. After reading about Espenlaub's experience in GRM and seeing him at the track since the incident unscathed, I doubt I'll ever get in a car on-track without a fire suit again. Can't imagine how stupid I would feel sitting in a burning car knowing I left my fire suit back in the paddock.

ltc

Anecdotal reports indicate the HANS Device offers benefits even when worn under a 3-point OEM style of seatbelt.

I skipped it for a reason.

Anecdotal reports?
Glad to see H&D taking a firm stand on the topic.

todinlaw

Well said, after reading that post last night, I passed it on to our CDI to remind him that bad **** happens in this hobby and we really cannot overlook safety. For example, a bit off topic here, but I was at Roebling Road a few weeks ago, they are really up tight about you refueling your car in the paddock without a Fire extinguisher at your feet. Something my local track is not keyed into, but I got to thinking, if your going to have a fire what is the most likely time, other than a rollover, and what do you do more often. So I am going to suggest, "not require" that if people are going to refuel in the paddock they bring fire extinguisher.

Bryan Watts

Probably a somewhat new rule, as I don't remember that ever being required at Roebling...but a good one for sure. Grand-Am actually requires two guys in head to toe fire gear with a 10 lbs fire extinguisher whenever fuel is being transferred.

kurt M

At least H&D does not pitch use with 3 points. They 100% say use with 5 point or more. What does the maker of the R3 say? They used to tell you not to use with anything other than 5 or more but I seem to recall they have changed this to OK to use with a 3 point but there is no good info on results. The R3 is often touted by users and some retail sellers as the solution for instructors in student cars. We all see this mentioned here and elswhere. Is it is my only question. If it can be proven to offer something, I and I bet many others, would get one before getting in another student car. I woud think there is enough desire for a 3 point usable H&N system that someone would at least test the existing gear to see if any offer any value in a 3 point system.

I go a form of the Gbaker route. Airbag cars with 3 point only OK, full systems on non airbag cars. No more 30 year old cars with 3 point regardless of condition. They were lacking when new.

kurt M

I slip it on my leg or soem other right there location to keep from leaving in in the car. It stays in the general area of the helmet. Don't want the chance of "nuts it is across the paddock, I will just skip it this time".