Help me design Yellow Student Curriculm
02-17-2010, 12:26 AM
#31
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
02-17-2010, 12:27 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 1,968
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peanut gallery comment from a newbie to this track thing (about 31 track days in the GT3 plus plenty of autox). Having recently moved up through the ranks to advanced at my local track over the past three seasons I've come across people who know the line, but don't understand why the line is the way it is. Simple corners are easy, but when you get to a couple corners back-to-back then they may not get it.
At my local track, most track day groups want you to drive a certain line though turn 4 and into 5. Talk to a racer and they do something different. Different reasons. Track day groups call their line the "sports car line" because it's safer for us yahoos in our street cars. The racers don't even call turn 4 a turn - it's a straightaway to them. They also end up at a different entry point into T5 because of the extra speed they are carrying.
If drivers know why something is done, then they can apply that to other tracks/situations. Simply memorizing a path won't do that.
Another thought, but I'm not sure how to measure this. It rains up here in Vancouver so I run a fair amount of wet track days. One time going into the above mentioned turn 4 (approx 60mph, left turn, very very slight downhill) the car started to understeer. All of a sudden things slowed down in my head. My thought process was like this:
- understeering....ok, I need more traction up front
- confirm wheel isn't turned too much
- ease off gas to get a bit of weight transfer up front
- not enough response...still understeering and the grass is coming up fast
- gently apply brakes
- car is starting to respond, balance turning and braking
- car is now under control, but out of my regular track position
- very short braking zone into T5 is now made even shorter so I need to adjust my line turning into T5 and prepare to take that a little wider since I might not be able to scrub off all my speed
- adjust line through T5 and set up for T6 (critical since there is a wall on turn exit)
All that went through my head without any panic or drama. My driving was very instinctive and natural. I knew that I hit some kind of milestone at that point and it was a good feeling.
Cheers,
At my local track, most track day groups want you to drive a certain line though turn 4 and into 5. Talk to a racer and they do something different. Different reasons. Track day groups call their line the "sports car line" because it's safer for us yahoos in our street cars. The racers don't even call turn 4 a turn - it's a straightaway to them. They also end up at a different entry point into T5 because of the extra speed they are carrying.
If drivers know why something is done, then they can apply that to other tracks/situations. Simply memorizing a path won't do that.
Another thought, but I'm not sure how to measure this. It rains up here in Vancouver so I run a fair amount of wet track days. One time going into the above mentioned turn 4 (approx 60mph, left turn, very very slight downhill) the car started to understeer. All of a sudden things slowed down in my head. My thought process was like this:
- understeering....ok, I need more traction up front
- confirm wheel isn't turned too much
- ease off gas to get a bit of weight transfer up front
- not enough response...still understeering and the grass is coming up fast
- gently apply brakes
- car is starting to respond, balance turning and braking
- car is now under control, but out of my regular track position
- very short braking zone into T5 is now made even shorter so I need to adjust my line turning into T5 and prepare to take that a little wider since I might not be able to scrub off all my speed
- adjust line through T5 and set up for T6 (critical since there is a wall on turn exit)
All that went through my head without any panic or drama. My driving was very instinctive and natural. I knew that I hit some kind of milestone at that point and it was a good feeling.
Cheers,
02-17-2010, 01:00 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Bill,
I've been the CDI in Alberta for the BMW clubs for a decade +. We've put together three programs for beginner, intermediate and advanced students with progressive curricula. We've had years to develop the programs and the head instructor/classroom lecturers for each group have developed their presentations to the point where they are quite effective. I have some documentation but the best approach I think would be for you contact us directly. Pm me and we'll talk...
cheers,
Peter
I've been the CDI in Alberta for the BMW clubs for a decade +. We've put together three programs for beginner, intermediate and advanced students with progressive curricula. We've had years to develop the programs and the head instructor/classroom lecturers for each group have developed their presentations to the point where they are quite effective. I have some documentation but the best approach I think would be for you contact us directly. Pm me and we'll talk...
cheers,
Peter
02-17-2010, 01:01 AM
#34
Pro
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Burnet, Texas (Central TX)
Posts: 504
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yellow student perspective
Well, you did ask for current student input, so here goes. I will speak more to what its like to be a Yellow student, since its been a while since you guys were in yellow instead of what you need to be teaching or how to do it. Maybe this perspective will help draw other conclusions on the format and teaching techniques of the class.
FWIW, my experience:
First TWS DE 12-08
Advanced to Blue first DE, second day
Blue Solo a couple of TWS DE's later
Advanced to Yellow midsummer 09 Putnam Park and Mid Ohio
Advanced to Yellow TWS Sept 09
Total # DEs 12 as I recall since 12-08
As a current Yellow student in LSR for the last 4 DE's, I find the current classroom interesting, informative and challenging. I agree with many posters that mentioned the Yellow group has an extremely wide range of skill sets and an even wider range of awareness on the track.
Something to think about...I attended a DE at Mid Ohio this past summer and one of the classroom period was unique in that the they had the chief driving instructor for the Mid Ohio driving school present 'A Lap Around Mid Ohio', turn by turn. It was a great change of pace and everyone picked up a little something to try on the track. It was a break from car dynamics, pyschology and the what air pressure should I be running my slicks at questions. Perhaps 'A Lap Around TWS' with a well respected driver could be offered once in a while.
Everyone learns at a different pace and respond to different methods of teaching. I guess I would have to place myself in ervtx's Group 1, and for the most part, given a Saturday class, I can pick up immediately on about 50% of the chalktalk. I'm from the school that says you can learn a lot more by listening and taking notes vs talking more than the instructor.
25% of what I hear in class, I have to go get on the track and try it. Of that number, I figure out about half the lessons before the end of the day and often times, the other half that night or the next day or I may go home Sunday evening without that understanding if things just don't click.
The classroom environment does promote interaction and its a time when the yellow students are all together and friends are made and track running buddies established. I don't think all students take advantage of the classroom and it shows on the track, in my opinion, though I can't prove it. You guys have really got your work cut out for you. Within the classroom you have the aforementioned varying levels of driver skill and a diverse collection of cars, 911s both 2wd and awd, 944s, Boxters, Miatas, BMW's, Subarus, Vettes and Mustangs and a variety of car set ups.
I am a but a rank beginner, and I know that track awareness and safety are but a part of the overall experience, but the few times I have those 'Oh Sh%&' moments was because someone wasn't in the game. I am beginning to think that some aspects of this sport, like track awarenes, periphereal vision and depth perception is natural for some people and it comes easier. For others I think they have to think about it and they get easily flustered in traffic.
I don't know how you can progress until you improve at managing the car and the track at the same time. Call it track multi tasking I guess.
What about that other 25% that I heard in class but never mastered on my own? Thats the part of me that needs to be shown how to do something, either in my instructors car or my own. If I just can't get it mentally or physically then I have to see it or feel it. For me, when I feel or see something, thats when the light bulb generally comes on.Its that, OH! So thats what you were wanting me to do kind of revelation. Sometimes I get it immediately or within a few laps and then I can go try technique myself in the next session.
I have only asked an instructor to drive my car twice and in both cases the instructors were happy to ablige. What I learned from that experience cannot be measured, because not only was I able to feel 'my car', but I got another perspective from the passenger side and even more importantly got a demonstration of what I was leaving on the table. That experience allows you to have the confidence in the car to ratchet things up another notch as the confidence in the driving skills increases.
Finally, I like to think of track walks as a classroom and I find them extremely valuable as you can really see things not so apprent when in the car, such as track texture, camber and where the grip is likely to be in the wet.
While the wish list is out, might as well see if it were possible to get an instructor in the car once each day.
I guess I got a little long winded, but hey, I am pretty excited and who knows, I might even aspire to strap on a race car one day with a big ole X on the back. You guys do a really great job and I'm impressed at how hard you work to improve your students driving and track experience. THANKS!
FWIW, my experience:
First TWS DE 12-08
Advanced to Blue first DE, second day
Blue Solo a couple of TWS DE's later
Advanced to Yellow midsummer 09 Putnam Park and Mid Ohio
Advanced to Yellow TWS Sept 09
Total # DEs 12 as I recall since 12-08
As a current Yellow student in LSR for the last 4 DE's, I find the current classroom interesting, informative and challenging. I agree with many posters that mentioned the Yellow group has an extremely wide range of skill sets and an even wider range of awareness on the track.
Something to think about...I attended a DE at Mid Ohio this past summer and one of the classroom period was unique in that the they had the chief driving instructor for the Mid Ohio driving school present 'A Lap Around Mid Ohio', turn by turn. It was a great change of pace and everyone picked up a little something to try on the track. It was a break from car dynamics, pyschology and the what air pressure should I be running my slicks at questions. Perhaps 'A Lap Around TWS' with a well respected driver could be offered once in a while.
Everyone learns at a different pace and respond to different methods of teaching. I guess I would have to place myself in ervtx's Group 1, and for the most part, given a Saturday class, I can pick up immediately on about 50% of the chalktalk. I'm from the school that says you can learn a lot more by listening and taking notes vs talking more than the instructor.
25% of what I hear in class, I have to go get on the track and try it. Of that number, I figure out about half the lessons before the end of the day and often times, the other half that night or the next day or I may go home Sunday evening without that understanding if things just don't click.
The classroom environment does promote interaction and its a time when the yellow students are all together and friends are made and track running buddies established. I don't think all students take advantage of the classroom and it shows on the track, in my opinion, though I can't prove it. You guys have really got your work cut out for you. Within the classroom you have the aforementioned varying levels of driver skill and a diverse collection of cars, 911s both 2wd and awd, 944s, Boxters, Miatas, BMW's, Subarus, Vettes and Mustangs and a variety of car set ups.
I am a but a rank beginner, and I know that track awareness and safety are but a part of the overall experience, but the few times I have those 'Oh Sh%&' moments was because someone wasn't in the game. I am beginning to think that some aspects of this sport, like track awarenes, periphereal vision and depth perception is natural for some people and it comes easier. For others I think they have to think about it and they get easily flustered in traffic.
I don't know how you can progress until you improve at managing the car and the track at the same time. Call it track multi tasking I guess.
What about that other 25% that I heard in class but never mastered on my own? Thats the part of me that needs to be shown how to do something, either in my instructors car or my own. If I just can't get it mentally or physically then I have to see it or feel it. For me, when I feel or see something, thats when the light bulb generally comes on.Its that, OH! So thats what you were wanting me to do kind of revelation. Sometimes I get it immediately or within a few laps and then I can go try technique myself in the next session.
I have only asked an instructor to drive my car twice and in both cases the instructors were happy to ablige. What I learned from that experience cannot be measured, because not only was I able to feel 'my car', but I got another perspective from the passenger side and even more importantly got a demonstration of what I was leaving on the table. That experience allows you to have the confidence in the car to ratchet things up another notch as the confidence in the driving skills increases.
Finally, I like to think of track walks as a classroom and I find them extremely valuable as you can really see things not so apprent when in the car, such as track texture, camber and where the grip is likely to be in the wet.
While the wish list is out, might as well see if it were possible to get an instructor in the car once each day.
I guess I got a little long winded, but hey, I am pretty excited and who knows, I might even aspire to strap on a race car one day with a big ole X on the back. You guys do a really great job and I'm impressed at how hard you work to improve your students driving and track experience. THANKS!
02-17-2010, 09:53 AM
#36
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Well, you did ask for current student input, so here goes. I will speak more to what its like to be a Yellow student, since its been a while since you guys were in yellow instead of what you need to be teaching or how to do it. Maybe this perspective will help draw other conclusions on the format and teaching techniques of the class.
FWIW, my experience:
First TWS DE 12-08
Advanced to Blue first DE, second day
Blue Solo a couple of TWS DE's later
Advanced to Yellow midsummer 09 Putnam Park and Mid Ohio
Advanced to Yellow TWS Sept 09
Total # DEs 12 as I recall since 12-08
As a current Yellow student in LSR for the last 4 DE's, I find the current classroom interesting, informative and challenging. I agree with many posters that mentioned the Yellow group has an extremely wide range of skill sets and an even wider range of awareness on the track.
Something to think about...I attended a DE at Mid Ohio this past summer and one of the classroom period was unique in that the they had the chief driving instructor for the Mid Ohio driving school present 'A Lap Around Mid Ohio', turn by turn. It was a great change of pace and everyone picked up a little something to try on the track. It was a break from car dynamics, pyschology and the what air pressure should I be running my slicks at questions. Perhaps 'A Lap Around TWS' with a well respected driver could be offered once in a while.
Everyone learns at a different pace and respond to different methods of teaching. I guess I would have to place myself in ervtx's Group 1, and for the most part, given a Saturday class, I can pick up immediately on about 50% of the chalktalk. I'm from the school that says you can learn a lot more by listening and taking notes vs talking more than the instructor.
25% of what I hear in class, I have to go get on the track and try it. Of that number, I figure out about half the lessons before the end of the day and often times, the other half that night or the next day or I may go home Sunday evening without that understanding if things just don't click.
The classroom environment does promote interaction and its a time when the yellow students are all together and friends are made and track running buddies established. I don't think all students take advantage of the classroom and it shows on the track, in my opinion, though I can't prove it. You guys have really got your work cut out for you. Within the classroom you have the aforementioned varying levels of driver skill and a diverse collection of cars, 911s both 2wd and awd, 944s, Boxters, Miatas, BMW's, Subarus, Vettes and Mustangs and a variety of car set ups.
I am a but a rank beginner, and I know that track awareness and safety are but a part of the overall experience, but the few times I have those 'Oh Sh%&' moments was because someone wasn't in the game. I am beginning to think that some aspects of this sport, like track awarenes, periphereal vision and depth perception is natural for some people and it comes easier. For others I think they have to think about it and they get easily flustered in traffic.
I don't know how you can progress until you improve at managing the car and the track at the same time. Call it track multi tasking I guess.
What about that other 25% that I heard in class but never mastered on my own? Thats the part of me that needs to be shown how to do something, either in my instructors car or my own. If I just can't get it mentally or physically then I have to see it or feel it. For me, when I feel or see something, thats when the light bulb generally comes on.Its that, OH! So thats what you were wanting me to do kind of revelation. Sometimes I get it immediately or within a few laps and then I can go try technique myself in the next session.
I have only asked an instructor to drive my car twice and in both cases the instructors were happy to ablige. What I learned from that experience cannot be measured, because not only was I able to feel 'my car', but I got another perspective from the passenger side and even more importantly got a demonstration of what I was leaving on the table. That experience allows you to have the confidence in the car to ratchet things up another notch as the confidence in the driving skills increases.
Finally, I like to think of track walks as a classroom and I find them extremely valuable as you can really see things not so apprent when in the car, such as track texture, camber and where the grip is likely to be in the wet.
While the wish list is out, might as well see if it were possible to get an instructor in the car once each day.
I guess I got a little long winded, but hey, I am pretty excited and who knows, I might even aspire to strap on a race car one day with a big ole X on the back. You guys do a really great job and I'm impressed at how hard you work to improve your students driving and track experience. THANKS!
FWIW, my experience:
First TWS DE 12-08
Advanced to Blue first DE, second day
Blue Solo a couple of TWS DE's later
Advanced to Yellow midsummer 09 Putnam Park and Mid Ohio
Advanced to Yellow TWS Sept 09
Total # DEs 12 as I recall since 12-08
As a current Yellow student in LSR for the last 4 DE's, I find the current classroom interesting, informative and challenging. I agree with many posters that mentioned the Yellow group has an extremely wide range of skill sets and an even wider range of awareness on the track.
Something to think about...I attended a DE at Mid Ohio this past summer and one of the classroom period was unique in that the they had the chief driving instructor for the Mid Ohio driving school present 'A Lap Around Mid Ohio', turn by turn. It was a great change of pace and everyone picked up a little something to try on the track. It was a break from car dynamics, pyschology and the what air pressure should I be running my slicks at questions. Perhaps 'A Lap Around TWS' with a well respected driver could be offered once in a while.
Everyone learns at a different pace and respond to different methods of teaching. I guess I would have to place myself in ervtx's Group 1, and for the most part, given a Saturday class, I can pick up immediately on about 50% of the chalktalk. I'm from the school that says you can learn a lot more by listening and taking notes vs talking more than the instructor.
25% of what I hear in class, I have to go get on the track and try it. Of that number, I figure out about half the lessons before the end of the day and often times, the other half that night or the next day or I may go home Sunday evening without that understanding if things just don't click.
The classroom environment does promote interaction and its a time when the yellow students are all together and friends are made and track running buddies established. I don't think all students take advantage of the classroom and it shows on the track, in my opinion, though I can't prove it. You guys have really got your work cut out for you. Within the classroom you have the aforementioned varying levels of driver skill and a diverse collection of cars, 911s both 2wd and awd, 944s, Boxters, Miatas, BMW's, Subarus, Vettes and Mustangs and a variety of car set ups.
I am a but a rank beginner, and I know that track awareness and safety are but a part of the overall experience, but the few times I have those 'Oh Sh%&' moments was because someone wasn't in the game. I am beginning to think that some aspects of this sport, like track awarenes, periphereal vision and depth perception is natural for some people and it comes easier. For others I think they have to think about it and they get easily flustered in traffic.
I don't know how you can progress until you improve at managing the car and the track at the same time. Call it track multi tasking I guess.
What about that other 25% that I heard in class but never mastered on my own? Thats the part of me that needs to be shown how to do something, either in my instructors car or my own. If I just can't get it mentally or physically then I have to see it or feel it. For me, when I feel or see something, thats when the light bulb generally comes on.Its that, OH! So thats what you were wanting me to do kind of revelation. Sometimes I get it immediately or within a few laps and then I can go try technique myself in the next session.
I have only asked an instructor to drive my car twice and in both cases the instructors were happy to ablige. What I learned from that experience cannot be measured, because not only was I able to feel 'my car', but I got another perspective from the passenger side and even more importantly got a demonstration of what I was leaving on the table. That experience allows you to have the confidence in the car to ratchet things up another notch as the confidence in the driving skills increases.
Finally, I like to think of track walks as a classroom and I find them extremely valuable as you can really see things not so apprent when in the car, such as track texture, camber and where the grip is likely to be in the wet.
While the wish list is out, might as well see if it were possible to get an instructor in the car once each day.
I guess I got a little long winded, but hey, I am pretty excited and who knows, I might even aspire to strap on a race car one day with a big ole X on the back. You guys do a really great job and I'm impressed at how hard you work to improve your students driving and track experience. THANKS!
FWIW, this comment was exactly my experience in moving from yellow to white:
Looking forward to running with you in white sometime in the near future
(in hexadecimal)
02-17-2010, 09:55 AM
#37
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Bill,
Re-reading this thread, and noticing your comment on technology, it occured to me that what would be really useful for yellow and white students (and instructors), would be video of some particularly well driven laps, with data overlay, AND with video of the footwork going on. I'm not sure if we have anyone in region that has a video setup that can handle that, but if we do, maybe we could get something like that done. You would have a nice pretty complete look at what is going on at each point on the track. I noticed that our CDI has a racecam setup, though I think with only one camera. If we could add another camera to his setup, even temporarily, we might get some good material. We'd have to get someone to drove his car though.
j/k of course.
Re-reading this thread, and noticing your comment on technology, it occured to me that what would be really useful for yellow and white students (and instructors), would be video of some particularly well driven laps, with data overlay, AND with video of the footwork going on. I'm not sure if we have anyone in region that has a video setup that can handle that, but if we do, maybe we could get something like that done. You would have a nice pretty complete look at what is going on at each point on the track. I noticed that our CDI has a racecam setup, though I think with only one camera. If we could add another camera to his setup, even temporarily, we might get some good material. We'd have to get someone to drove his car though.
j/k of course.
02-17-2010, 09:58 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
As for using video & data tech to Mike's point, the constraining factor is making it accessible in a 45 minute classroom format to students. No one wants to lug projectors, etc to the track...
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
02-17-2010, 10:11 AM
#39
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
http://www.vimeo.com/4402642
And I'd be happy to get free instruction from the yellow group!
http://www.aaxatech.com/products/p2_pico_projector.htm
The lighting in the TWS classroom would require a stronger lamp, but the options are out there....
02-17-2010, 10:15 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Dude, I am the master of dual camera setups.
http://www.vimeo.com/4402642
And I'd be happy to get free instruction from the yellow group!
I've got one of these, and they are truly amazing.
http://www.aaxatech.com/products/p2_pico_projector.htm
The lighting in the TWS classroom would require a stronger lamp, but the options are out there....
http://www.vimeo.com/4402642
And I'd be happy to get free instruction from the yellow group!
I've got one of these, and they are truly amazing.
http://www.aaxatech.com/products/p2_pico_projector.htm
The lighting in the TWS classroom would require a stronger lamp, but the options are out there....
Yes, the challenge has always been preventing gear like that from walking off when the classroom is unoccupied.
Chain of custody and all that.Professional Racing and Driving Coach
02-17-2010, 10:50 AM
#42
I have a 2 camera car, although currently they are front and rear bumper cams I could easily change to a foot cam. I must say though the rear bumper cam has proven more useful than I ever thought. I usually don't bring that car to the PCA DE's but I could easily get some incar from one of the practice days before one of the races at TWS for classroom use.
I also am a Traqmate dealer and sell the VIO's so I could easily set up the equip. to do it as well.
I also am a Traqmate dealer and sell the VIO's so I could easily set up the equip. to do it as well.
Bill,
Re-reading this thread, and noticing your comment on technology, it occured to me that what would be really useful for yellow and white students (and instructors), would be video of some particularly well driven laps, with data overlay, AND with video of the footwork going on. I'm not sure if we have anyone in region that has a video setup that can handle that, but if we do, maybe we could get something like that done. You would have a nice pretty complete look at what is going on at each point on the track. I noticed that our CDI has a racecam setup, though I think with only one camera. If we could add another camera to his setup, even temporarily, we might get some good material. We'd have to get someone to drove his car though.
j/k of course.
Re-reading this thread, and noticing your comment on technology, it occured to me that what would be really useful for yellow and white students (and instructors), would be video of some particularly well driven laps, with data overlay, AND with video of the footwork going on. I'm not sure if we have anyone in region that has a video setup that can handle that, but if we do, maybe we could get something like that done. You would have a nice pretty complete look at what is going on at each point on the track. I noticed that our CDI has a racecam setup, though I think with only one camera. If we could add another camera to his setup, even temporarily, we might get some good material. We'd have to get someone to drove his car though.
j/k of course.
02-17-2010, 11:33 AM
#43
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Dude, I am the master of dual camera setups.
http://www.vimeo.com/4402642
And I'd be happy to get free instruction from the yellow group!
http://www.vimeo.com/4402642
And I'd be happy to get free instruction from the yellow group!
FWIW, Martin uses a laptop and projector for the TWS PDS events. We've never had a problem (knock on wood)
02-17-2010, 01:18 PM
#44
Pro
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oegstgeest, the Netherlands
Posts: 592
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Many great suggestions sofar, and speaking from personal experience I greatly benefited from the car control drills we teach at the Performance Droving School.
Wet skid pad, slalom, pitch & catch are especially useful to get that butt-feel for what your car is doing. Maybe a suggestion for yellow students to sign up for one of these events. The next one is the weekend before the May DE...
Sorry to be pushing the PDS agenda so blatantly, but I could not resist.
JP
Wet skid pad, slalom, pitch & catch are especially useful to get that butt-feel for what your car is doing. Maybe a suggestion for yellow students to sign up for one of these events. The next one is the weekend before the May DE...
Sorry to be pushing the PDS agenda so blatantly, but I could not resist.
JP
02-17-2010, 01:45 PM
#45
The Apex folks here in Dallas have PBoxes that they will loan out to the advanced students. These are very portable GPS logging units with fairly robust software for analysis. Not as good as Traqmate, but much cheaper. During class room sessions they overlay the data on instructor/template laps to see where students can gain time.
On the progression curve from blue-yellow-white, there is a great benefit from seeing where you are slower than "better" drivers with the same platform. For most students, the visual representation of braking distance, braking Gs, lateral Gs and speed through a corner is very enlightenting.
-td
On the progression curve from blue-yellow-white, there is a great benefit from seeing where you are slower than "better" drivers with the same platform. For most students, the visual representation of braking distance, braking Gs, lateral Gs and speed through a corner is very enlightenting.
-td